Author Topic: Stock finish for the inexperienced  (Read 6921 times)

Offline Longone

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Stock finish for the inexperienced
« on: February 12, 2015, 02:50:02 PM »
I'm looking for advice on a stock finish for a Walnut stock refinishing project. In the past I have used Tru-Oil applied by hand, I really don't care for the gloss finish and would like a satin look that is easy to work with.
 I used B.C. sealer /filler and I apparently put it on too heavy only to come back to find sags in the mostly dried coat. So I stripped that back off and then decided to try some Permalyn I had on the shelf for many years. I am experiencing dry spots and streaks which after reading through many previous post on the subject here I am lead to believe is because of the products age. The one thing that did strike me was there was no "skim" on the oil in the can, that probably should have said throw it out and get some fresh product.

So after reading through a bunch of posts here using the search feature my question is, for a person that is relatively new to finishes which will provide a satin finish that is forgiving to apply?

Longone


 

Offline Dave Marsh

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Re: Stock finish for the inexperienced
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2015, 04:57:31 PM »
I have refinished two walnut stocks this winter and have really had a good experience on both with Chambers Oil. 


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Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Stock finish for the inexperienced
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2015, 05:46:07 PM »
I put enough coats of Birchwood Casey walnut stock sealer on this stock to fill the pores completely, sanded back to bare wood and applied 4 coats of Chambers oil finish. I like it, not shiny in the least.


Offline PPatch

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Re: Stock finish for the inexperienced
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2015, 07:51:24 PM »
Decide if you want to fill the grain on the walnut or not before using the oil, its an aesthetic choice. Personally I like the grain to show most of the time but will fill it if I think the project will benefit from that.

For a hand-rubbed satin finish I too recommend the Chambers Oil. Applying it is a process and takes patience, there is work involved. Expect to work at it for two weeks or more according to how quickly it is drying between coats. Your stock sounds as if it is sealed now with those products you have already applied, so using the oil will be for final finish and top coating. The oil should work fine over the sealers you already have but before you begin with it be sure to rub out the existing finish (it must be DRY first) to level it and obtain as even a finish as is possible. One could use 400 grit paper, 0000 steel wool or 3M fine grade pads.

The process of applying the oil: Use fresh product. Using your finger or a small lint free cloth pad (1x1") apply a drop or two of the oil and rub it around until it covers as far as it will go and begins to "tug" or resist going further, wet the cloth or your finger again and move to an adjacent area and repeat, slightly overlapping the area you just finished. Keep doing this until you have the whole gun covered. At this point you will have some streaking and swirls, don't worry about them. Set the gun aside and allow the oil to completely dry. The trick is applying light thin coats as evenly as possible. Do not gunk it on!

Drying will be according the environment the gun is in, it could take hours or it might take a day or more. Be sure it is dry, or at least 90% dry before applying more oil. Once dry repeat the process described above, let dry once more. Applying these coats requires developing a "touch," but you will soon learn that.

As you apply successive coats a buildup will occur. For me after about the 3rd application I wait until the oil is completely dry and then go over the rifle with 600 grit paper wet with Mineral Oil, go with the grain using a light touch. This removes the swirls and levels the finish, you do small areas at a time just like when oiling. When finished with the paper wipe all the mineral oil off with a clean rag, t-shirt, etc.

You are now ready to apply more coats using the same method as above. You be the judge of when the finish is built to your liking. I find 6-7 applications generally result in the finish and look I like. Once you decide to end the oiling process you'll want to rub out the finish to level it all over, but you MUST allow the oil to completely dry first. There are many techniques for rubbing out a finish, some just do it with lots of elbow grease and the palm of their hand. I use Rottenstone and mineral oil applied with a 5x5" square of t-shirt cloth made into a pad by putting a small square of foam in the middle of the square, wrapping it in the cloth and tying it with string. I put some mineral oil in a shallow can lid, dip the pad in it and then dab a bit of the fine rottenstone on the pad and just like applying the oil I lightly rub in circles covering and overlapping one area at a time.

That is the way I do an oil finish, others probably do it differently.

dave
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 12:23:57 AM by PPatch »
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Offline B.Habermehl

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Re: Stock finish for the inexperienced
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2015, 01:12:23 AM »
I like Formbys tung oil. I slather as much on as the wood seems to want to absorb. Let set till tacky, ten minutes to a half hour. Scrub off with a sock till the finish is off the surface of the wood. It will take a bit of elbow grease and pressure, the wood and sock will be warm to touch from friction.This fills the pores of the grain nicely as the gelled finish gets driven into the pores. Depending on temp and humidity you can recoat in twelve to twenty four hrs. Repeat the same way.  Usually four to six coats will do it. If the finish seems to not want to dry add some japan drier the the bottle of finish a tablespoon or so will do it. Rub the last coat or two on with the classic method of stretching a drop as far as it can go with your fingers. Rub out with denim after a day or so of drying. To the degree of shine you want. BJH
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Stock finish for the inexperienced
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2015, 01:21:24 AM »
I haven't done it yet, but am going after Dan Phariss' method with linseed oil.  He has written it up a dozen times on here and in the archives too probably.  Involves reducing your own LSO, adding some components, less coats-done and valid.  Maybe he'll drift by here and share a "simplified" version or a link to his previous write ups.

But then nothing is simpler than beeswax.  Some use it with success (as have I) and some don't like it at all.  I suspect the variations in hardness of the product makes a difference.  Mine is very hard-can barely melt it with a hair dryer.  But this may not work with previous product on the wood, and am told can't be oiled over.  I was able to remove some more wood and then blend the finish back in.  

BW method: get your color, then melt your wax onto/into the wood as much as you can get it to take and you'll take breaks to cool your fingers.  I used newspaper to buffer my fingers from the heat somewhat.  Preheat the wood as much as possible too.  Buff off excess, done.  Doesn't spot, hunted 2 seasons with it, no probs.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 01:26:12 AM by WadePatton »
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andy49

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Re: Stock finish for the inexperienced
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2015, 02:20:28 AM »
On walnut I simply use Permalyn sealer. Brush on then 10 minutes later wipe off with lint free cloth. Keep it up once a day until it just starts to shine (6 to 8 coats) and knock it back a little with steel wool. Produces a solid satin finish. Almost fool proof.
Andy

Offline Longone

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Re: Stock finish for the inexperienced
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2015, 03:07:40 PM »
Well my hunch was right, the Permalyn I had on the shelf was indeed well past it's useful life. I contacted Mr. Schreiber and we exchanged a few e-mails about his product. One thing he enlightened me about was the date code on the bottom of the can, once I had that I realized that mine had been on the shelf much longer than I thought.

 So I placed an order for a fresh can and then proceeded to start stripping the stock again. I am getting pretty good at that part at least. The lesson learned here is to put the date purchased on the side of the can where I can see it and when it's getting close to the end of it's useful life replace it.

Thanks for your application tips, some good thoughts here.

Longone

Offline moleeyes36

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Re: Stock finish for the inexperienced
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2015, 03:50:11 PM »
I'm a fan of PPatch's method.  Chambers Traditional Oil Stock Finish and finishing up the project by rubbing out with Rottenstone and mineral oil.  There are several steps involved, but if you take the time to do it right you'll get good results.

Wade mentions bees wax as a finish.  I haven't tried that yet, but if you look in the archives at the pistol grip Hawken that Taylor finished with bees wax you'll see a very nice looking gun.  I don't think he applied anything over the bees wax.  However, I believe I actually did read a posting from someone in the past, maybe Taylor, about using Chambers oil over bees wax quite successfully. 

In the end there are any number of finishing approaches used by people that work well for them and result in a nice looking gun.  The" best finishing approach" is rather like the "best patch lube".  It's a subjective thing and people use what works best for them to achieve the finish they're after.

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sweed

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Re: Stock finish for the inexperienced
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2015, 05:16:11 PM »
I haven't done it yet, but am going after Dan Phariss' method with linseed oil.  He has written it up a dozen times on here and in the archives too probably.  Involves reducing your own LSO, adding some components, less coats-done and valid.  Maybe he'll drift by here and share a "simplified" version or a link to his previous write ups.





Wade
Can you point me to DPs method with linseed oil?
Ive done a couple of linseed oil stocks, but never added anything. I did  a search and came up empty!
Preiciate a little help.
Thanks

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Stock finish for the inexperienced
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2015, 05:44:57 PM »
Not sure why everyone is going to so much trouble with the a Chambers finish.

The reason I use it, is that it's soooooo easy, and gives a great result with very little added effort.
According to directions, flood the wood till it will not accept anymore oil, eliminate all dry spots by adding more oil, let it sit 10 to 15 minutes, and wipe it down with a soft cloth, removing all standing finish, no wet spots. Let it dry overnight and repeat till you have the buildup you like. I build to a soft luster, not shiny, nice hand rubbed looking finish. Usually takes about 5 coats No rubbing out to knock down shine.  I usually use a fine Scotchbrite pad to apply last 3 coats.
Great stuff!
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Stock finish for the inexperienced
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2015, 07:28:30 PM »
I haven't done it yet, but am going after Dan Phariss' method with linseed oil.  He has written it up a dozen times on here and in the archives too probably.  Involves reducing your own LSO, adding some components, less coats-done and valid.  Maybe he'll drift by here and share a "simplified" version or a link to his previous write ups.

Wade
Can you point me to DPs method with linseed oil?
Ive done a couple of linseed oil stocks, but never added anything. I did  a search and came up empty!
Preiciate a little help.
Thanks
I don't know what sort of search that was.  I cheated and searched "boil" by member "Dphariss" and got GOLD.  I'll snip one and poke it up here.  

[time passes...]

Buy a gallon of boiled oil, I prefer Parks brand if it can be found and some Japan Drier.
Buy an old deep fat fryer  at a second hand store.

Pick up some limestone a few pebbles 3-4 about the size of my thumb work.

DO THIS OUTSIDE. It is fully as dangerous as a deep fat fryer used for cooking. Keep all living things away from it.
Put the oil in the fryer with the limestone after its been whacked with a hammer once or twice to make it finer.
Put in a tablespoon  or so of Japan Drier.
Put the fryer on high. Oil will begin to smoke when near max temp. Keep it there for 10-20 minutes then shut off and allow to cool. This will darken and thicken the oil.
Decant into jars.
For fill oil for walnut I leave about 1/2 the oil in the cooker and reheat for an hour or so to thicken it more.
The limestone reduces the acid level in the oil to reduce drying time. This oil can be used to make HC oil cloth too but the acids will rot the cloth so acid reduction is important.
Some add lead acetate etc to the oil to redden it somewhat and reduce drying time in high humidity.
On walnut this oil will allow 2 coats a day if put in direct sunlight. I apply heavy for walnut then rub off the excess to fill the grain. 0000 steel wool will work on uncarved guns. Take it off when it get rubbery and will not pull from the grain. This stuff will work as fill when very thick and I put a cloth over a pint of it to allow air access to thicken it more.
It will also enhance the figure in wood far better than modern clear finishes will.
Initial coat should be the thin oil with 1 in 4 parts (+-) turpentine that has been aged in a shallow pan 2-3 days to allow it to pickup oxygen. This will speed drying of the oil that soaks into the wood.

I mix the oil 50-50 with Grumbacher's Oil Painting Medium III for final stock finish. Makes a soft oil varnish than resists water better than straight oil. I do not do built up finishes.
Dan


http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=5803.0

Well that doesn't look so simple, but it tends to cut down the finishing time significantly whilst using "proper" materials.  Some of us are of the opinion that most originals were not rubbed down for 2 weeks to get a good finish, maybe the fancier ones were-and that's when you need a few apprentices.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 08:02:22 PM by WadePatton »
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Offline EricEwing

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Re: Stock finish for the inexperienced
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2015, 07:35:40 PM »
Not sure why everyone is going to so much trouble with the a Chambers finish.

The reason I use it, is that it's soooooo easy, and gives a great result with very little added effort.
According to directions, flood the wood till it will not accept anymore oil, eliminate all dry spots by adding more oil, let it sit 10 to 15 minutes, and wipe it down with a soft cloth, removing all standing finish, no wet spots. Let it dry overnight and repeat till you have the buildup you like. I build to a soft luster, not shiny, nice hand rubbed looking finish. Usually takes about 5 coats No rubbing out to knock down shine.  I usually use a fine Scotchbrite pad to apply last 3 coats.
Great stuff!

I just finished my first kit, a chambers fowler with a walnut stock. I stained the stock with LMF stain, then put about 4 coats of the chambers stock finish on it with a lint-free cloth.  The first coat was a little heavy, then subsequent coats were lighter and lighter. I didn't do any sanding in between coats. It was incredibly easy and came out fine as far as I can tell.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Stock finish for the inexperienced
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2015, 07:36:38 PM »
I agree with Dane... others are fun to play with but if you want relatively fast (no-plastic) oil varnish with a nice soft lutre that is really tough you can't beat Chamber Original Oil Finish. The only thing I have ever substituted as a filer under it is a 1# cut of dewaxed Garnet Shellac for color and humidity resistance.
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Stock finish for the inexperienced
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2015, 12:19:20 AM »
The last two walnut stocks that I finished I used a black grain filler that I got from Jim Chambers. I can't find the remnants of the can right now (may have used it all) and can't find it on Jim's website so he may not carry it now. I know that Woodcraft carries a neutral grain filler that can be tinted black. I really think walnut looks good with the grain filled with black filler. Once the grain is filled you can then use your favorite finish over top of it. I like the Chambers Oil finish, great stuff, also Watco Danish Oil. I have tried Permalyn and don't care for it, some say it stands up better in rain/snow but I don't hunt in that type climate so I don't know how the oil finishes compare.

When I was still in high school Ind. Arts, our instructor had a stack of 12 inch sq boards of open grain wood. On the back was the "recipe" he had used for the finish on the front. He used white grain filler to mix many different color i.e. brass, silver (tint), black etc
into the white filler. This made the grain really stand out. I thought the black was the best looking one and still do!
Dennis
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Offline FDR

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Re: Stock finish for the inexperienced
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2015, 12:36:08 AM »
The black stock filler is available from Chambers item number FK-WF at $5 per container. Found it on their price list with the stock finish products.

Fred

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Stock finish for the inexperienced
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2015, 01:34:14 AM »
Quote
The black stock filler is available from Chambers item number FK-WF at $5 per container. Found it on their price list with the stock finish products.

Fred
Its good stuff, will have to order some more.
Dennis
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Stock finish for the inexperienced
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2015, 05:12:11 AM »
I'm looking for advice on a stock finish for a Walnut stock refinishing project. In the past I have used Tru-Oil applied by hand, I really don't care for the gloss finish and would like a satin look that is easy to work with.
 I used B.C. sealer /filler and I apparently put it on too heavy only to come back to find sags in the mostly dried coat. So I stripped that back off and then decided to try some Permalyn I had on the shelf for many years. I am experiencing dry spots and streaks which after reading through many previous post on the subject here I am lead to believe is because of the products age. The one thing that did strike me was there was no "skim" on the oil in the can, that probably should have said throw it out and get some fresh product.

So after reading through a bunch of posts here using the search feature my question is, for a person that is relatively new to finishes which will provide a satin finish that is forgiving to apply?

Longone


 
Cut Tru-Oil 50-50 with hardware store boiled linseed oil this will get you closer to a traditional finish without a lot of hoop jumping. Or buy some of the oil finish Chambers sells. Avoid anything with mineral spirits or at least with much MS in it. It can kill brain cells. If you need to thin  a natural oil finish use real turpentine. Pure Gum Spirits. Its possible to buy Turp from a small maker in the south that has no extra junk in it. http://diamondgforestproducts.net/

Once one learns how to use it a natural linseed oil varnish is far better than any of the modern hardware store varnishes. Or the plastics some seem to be addicted to. For "ease of use" when in reality they are MORE work.   

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Stock finish for the inexperienced
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2015, 05:30:20 AM »
PS If a heavy bodied oil is used for fill there is no need of a filler which I found to be more work than they were worth.
Fillers came about with the excessively thinned "modern" finishes that appeared on the market in the late 19th C. Being very thin they lack the necessary solids to fill without many many coats (and even with a filler need too many coats). So a separate "filler" is needed.

Dan
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