Advice on carving difficult wood needed

[Scota4570]

I have never carved a rifle before.  Lots of checkering but no carving.  The curly maple I am attempting to carve tears out extremely easily.  It was not a cheap stock.  My tools are as sharp as can be made.  After 2000 grit diamond stone I go to a super hard stone that looks like flint, then finally stropped on leather with rottenstone.  I can cut cross grain however, carving does not allow for that all th time.  It appears that I will have to sand everything, this stuff can't be scraped without tearing out.  Most maple I have used is crazy hard.  IT cut well and left a shiny surface under the new cut.  This one is not like that, it is more porous.  Perhaps it is not rock maple but red maple or??    It is like walnut that wants to fuzz when checkering. 

Any tips on how to proceed?

[Acer Saccharum]

Hmmmm, it fuzzes up? It could be red maple.

Maybe simplify your carving so you don't drive yourself crazy. Next gun make sure your wood is hard and dense enough suitable for carving.

[Jim Kibler]

Some maple can be very difficult.  The best advice I can give for these cases is to use extremely sharp tools and very thin cuts.  It's often very helpful to use shearing cuts with a skew chisel as well, for background removal.  When using a gouge, the tool can be rotated slightly as it is pushed. 

[FALout]

I finished a rifle this last fall that had some curl that I've heard called "shell type curl".  It was a pain to carve and shape, I had to come from almost every angle to do any cuts.  I ended up doing a lot with files that I could use as is or altered to do what I wanted.  Sanding won't be much of an option.

[Stophel]

Sounds like you've probably got silver maple.  Silver maple doesn't even make good firewood.  Oh, it can be pretty, but it's fuzzy, soft, useless $#@*.  Probably not what you want to hear, but it is truly NOT worth bothering with.  Cut your losses and go on to a better piece of wood.

[Dphariss]

Sounds like you've probably got silver maple.  Silver maple doesn't even make good firewood.  Oh, it can be pretty, but it's fuzzy, soft, useless $#@*.  Probably not what you want to hear, but it is truly NOT worth bothering with.  Cut your losses and go on to a better piece of wood.

My thought as well....

Dan

[kaintuck]

Sounds like you've probably got silver maple.  Silver maple doesn't even make good firewood.  Oh, it can be pretty, but it's fuzzy, soft, useless $#@*.  Probably not what you want to hear, but it is truly NOT worth bothering with.  Cut your losses and go on to a better piece of wood.

 
oh no!!!....my current Christian spring rifle is a hard piece of silver maple.......now you've done it~ put a 'hoo-doo' hex on me............

marc n tomtomo

[T*O*F]

Before venturing a SWAG, I would ask where you purchased the wood; ie, one of our reputable suppliers of gunstock woods or is it just a slab you picked up somewhere?

Also, I have had a couple of pieces of hard maple that suffered from wind shake.  They were fibrous and grainy and almost impossible to carve.

[Stophel]

A good piece of wood is a good piece of wood, whatever it is, and if you've gotten ahold of a good solid piece of silver maple, good for you, but I honestly would not have gone anywhere near anything sold as silver maple.  Call me a "wood snob" if you will    , but poor quality wood is just not worth foolin' with.

My experiences from having tried to fool with what I can only presume is silver maple (often simply sold as "soft maple", and it is) is that it is S O F T and mushy.   Generally, unfinished it has a sort of grayish cast to the color.  Think Pecatonica.  Tulip poplar would make a better stock wood (seriously), it at least has more stiffness and body.   Some of this wood, whatever it is, will at least finish smooth...ish, whereas other pieces fuzz up and they CANNOT be made smooth by any means.  Chiseling, scraping, sanding, cursing, nothing works.   A fuzzy hairy mess.  I've even tried from blanks a couple of times, foolishly, and ended in total failure... though I did finally learn a lesson.  Never buy anything simply labeled as "soft" maple... it will be.  If it says "red maple", it might be alright, but I'd rather see it in person.  Sugar maple seems to be of pretty consistent quality, and I don't have too many qualms about buying it sight unseen (though I usually buy it in person anyway now).

If you have a piece of wood that is fuzzy when you try to cut it with a sharp chisel or scrape it or sand it, whatever it is, it is simply no good.  Chuck it.  Call it a learning experience and move on.  Save yourself more headaches and heartaches and start over with a good piece of wood.  

[Acer Saccharum]

Before we all jump to conclusions about what kind of wood it is, not having seen it and all, I don't believe it's good advice to throw the whole thing out and start all over.

[Meteorman]

My experiences from having tried to fool with what I can only presume is silver maple (often simply sold as "soft maple", and it is) is that it is S O F T and mushy.   Generally, unfinished it has a sort of grayish cast to the color.  Think Pecatonica.  Tulip poplar would make a better stock wood (seriously), it at least has more stiffness and body.

Not tryin to pick a fight, Stophel sir, but that seems like a rather general knock on Pecatonica River's wood.
I had good hard pieces (4 outta 4 maples and 2 outta 2 cherrys were fine ) from them when I was doing precarves.  I don't believe they were silver maple.
/mike
 

[Stophel]

I've used a few (or tried to) back when I first started years ago, and seen several others, and the maple wood used simply did not impress me as to quality in general.  A couple were maddeningly soft and fuzzy and just had to be abandoned.  Again, perhaps I am a "wood snob".

My first rifle was done ages and ages ago (like 1995 or so, I think) with a precarve Pecatonica stock.  I have since taken it apart but still have the stock here.  It's pretty soft stuff.  I even got another stock to redo the gun and kinda got disenchanted with the whole thing... maybe I shoulda got walnut...   Later, I made this "barn gun"  with a Pecatonica stock, and the wood was... ok.   I would not even attempt to carve it.   I tried to do another just like it, and the more I worked with the wood, the worse it got.  Fuzz, fuzz, fuzz.

So, fuzzy got chucked.

I then attempted to stock a "musketoon" from a curly soft (silver???) maple blank, and even got it mostly done before I had to quit because I just couldn't stand it anymore!  The wood just kept growing hair!  Finally got the picture, and started all over with sugar maple and never looked back.  I may or may not still actually have a curly silver maple stock blank here in the shop that I've had for years, but I wouldn't attempt to use it now even for a million dollars. (I can say that, knowing no one is really going to offer me a million dollars!    )


If I have painted with too broad a brush, I apologize.  I have never been afraid to call 'em as I see 'em anyway, right or wrong,  but I'm sure I have grown even more brusk and insensitive these past few years.

I still hold to my advice:  If the wood is fuzzy when you try to cut, scrape, or sand it, it is no good.  Try something else.  

[Jim Kibler]

Yep.  I think it's quite a big step to assume he has a piece of silver maple.  My experience is that sometimes even good hard curly sugar maple can at times carve like $#@*.  Some wants to pop and flake out like nobody's business.  Softer wood can be carved just fine.  I've done it numerous times, but care must be taken.  It's really easy to give up on it or suggest to give up on it.  With care, about any piece of maple can be carved to good ending results.  Some are easier than others, of course.

[Dphariss]

I used to work in a place where I had no control over the wood. I got stuck with a piece or three of what I was told was Maple from Oregon. It worked just like what was described here. Like pine with curl and about as heavy.
Now I have a rifle that is stocked in had maple but most of the carving is not modeled since small decoration would often simply chip off and then need to be glued back... But it was still far better than the "Oregon" maple  which fortunately was used on 1870s design breechloaders.
This is why I do a few knife/chisel cuts in maple before I start working on the blank to see if its a waste of time or not.
Dan

[Gaeckle]

If the original poster could supply some photo's of the intended project and some of the "fuzz" cuttings we would get a better and clearer picture of the situation at hand..........

[Scota4570]

Seems like a struck a nerve!

I am not as experienced as most here. I won't say who sold me the wood.  The problem is likely me.  Wood is a natural product with variations in it's working qualities.  I do not expect a vendor to test each piece of wood he sells to be sure it cuts nice.  I'm sure 99% of guys wo assemble a plain rifle would be happy with it.  What I am trying to do is a journey of discovery.  The skills are outside my comfort zone.  That is why I do this kind of thing, to learn new skills and learn new things.  I won't kick dirt on the reputation of a vendor with my level of experience.

I have made and or checkered about 50 modern stocks in walnut, a few in mesquite, birch and maple.  Checkering was my thing for a while.  Some walnut is great to work with, hard, dense, cuts clean.  Some was more open and would tend to leave fuzzies that had to be rubbed off with a suede brush.  Sometime I had to put dilute finish in the checkering and come back to it to do another pass and get a smooth finish.  

This wood wants to be like the last one. When I cut a line with a checkering tool I need to go real light and rub the final line with scotch bright to get it to be smooth.   As the grain moves in and out with the curl I can't cut with the flow of the plunging grain all the time, because it changes direction too often.  The grain undulates in and out like waves on the ocean.  That is curl, that is good.  The trouble is if I forget myself and try even the smallest cut against the plunging grain the wood splits out.   For instance, a spoke shave is a total loss.  It leaves pot holes in the surface.  The wood seems to lack the strength to resist pulling out little pieces.  The lateral strength between the grain seems pretty weak.  That leaves me in a pickle when removing the back ground when carving.  

Is what I am describing the nature of most curly maple or possibly I have a piece of inferior material? More importantly is there a work around?  I am too deep into it to not finish. 

For comparison, I have another chunk of maple I bought 30-years ago.  I have cut two stocks of it.  It has some curl, is slab sawn, and is very heavy and dense.  It literally rings if struck.  It cuts slow and smooth.   Is that just a very good chunk of wood or the expectation for gun stock quality maple?

"Some of this wood, whatever it is, will at least finish smooth...ish, whereas other pieces fuzz up and they CANNOT be made smooth by any means."  ..... It's not that bad.  

[Acer Saccharum]

No nerve struck. You will realize after being on the ALR for a while, that everyone is so willing to help and offer their opinion. It's a beautiful thing.

You will, however, get 50 different opinions for every question asked, so you need to sort through them to see which applies best to your situation. This happens with just about every topic. 

It's a good thing.

[Stophel]

Ah, sorry, that's entirely different.  You had described it as porous and it would fuzz up, so that's what I went with.  What you describe now just sounds like ornery curly grain.     When you find it, you have to be very careful about cutting it.  Find the direction that works best for cutting each spot (if any).  One spot may need to be cut from an entirely different direction from the next spot only a half inch away.  It can be quite irritating (and one of the reasons I generally stay away from super curly wood!)  Sometimes it just doesn't like to be cut from any direction, and you're forced to work it with files and (gasp!) sandpaper.

 

I'm working on a stock now that has some burl in the butt, and I can be going along nicely with my chisel and then suddenly the grain changes and pop, out comes a little chunk.... grrrr....  So, I'll have to just slowly work it down with files.   

[WadePatton]

...  The problem is likely me.  Wood is a natural product with variations in it's working qualities.  I do not expect a vendor to test each piece of wood he sells to be sure it cuts nice. 
...chunk of maple I bought 30-years ago.  I have cut two stocks of it.  It has some curl, is slab sawn, and is very heavy and dense.  It literally rings if struck.  It cuts slow and smooth.   Is that just a very good chunk of wood or the expectation for gun stock quality maple?..

Well, as I unnerstand it, heavy and dense _is_ the good wood.  Of course that may be a bit subjective, but also easy enough for a professional wood dealer to ascertain by hefting the board or blank.  I can certainly discern good/bad/dotey firewood by sight and heft and touch (moisture content).  I'd expect similar discrimination from the vendor of stockwood. 

If i ever get so bold as to carve a stock, I'll be sure to indicate that to the seller-such that he/she can steer me to the denser selections available.  Then maybe test on it a little before letting anything. 

Did the blank not feel "light" to you?  I mean a fella can get all cubic and calculate density-assuming a properly low level of moisture content.  I think i did that once, but don't know where i put my notes. 

I do appreciate your acknowledgement of likely fault and not naming names*, a sign of maturity often forgotten these days.   

[Pete G.]

The last build I did had 9 different grain changes in the fore end, counting both sides. Makes shaping with a plane or spoke shave almost impossible. The big Vixen file was the salvation for shaping. Carving can be a totally different problem however.  Every different area on a stock can have grain going in different directions. Cutting across the grain is about the only way that some of these areas can be handled. I have found a double skew palm chisel to be the most helpful in these situations. Even then there can still be areas where the curl can pop out, even if you are careful.

Sometimes you just have to accept it for what it is and move on, just like the original builders seem to have. It is not unknown to see some of the old rifles with areas that didn't behave as the builder wished.

[Joe S]

Dampening the wood with a 50/50 mixture of water and alcohol can help a lot with recalcitrant wood.   Any alcohol will work, but if you use ethanol, you can always drink it if it doesn’t solve your problem.

[Scota4570]

Dampening the wood with a 50/50 mixture of water and alcohol can help a lot with recalcitrant wood.   Any alcohol will work, but if you use ethanol, you can always drink it if it doesn’t solve your problem.

Thanks, I'll try that.

It seems logical that something that is a bit slippery would help.  The alcohol would not raise the grain like say soapy water.  Alcohol would evaporate quickly too. 

Thanks,
Scot

[davec2]

Being a sailor, I use rum.

[Pete G.]

Being a sailor, I use rum.

That's alcohol abuse.

[SmokePole Dave]

A wealth of good info here. I'm fond of the rum idea, its sound better than using it to clean my gun! I have the same situation on a squirrel rifle I'm currently building. Instead of replacing the stock at this point, ( since it's February and I'm snowed in) I have elected to continue with the build and see how it comes out. I can always use the practice in carving and if it turns to be scrap it gives me an excuse to do it over in the spring. I build for my own pleasure so to me its no big deal. Maken Smoke Dave