Update on CVA

[frontier gander]

Just wanted to post some pics of the 58cal cva mountain rifle i put together. I recently got the patch box in and polished it. I have to buy the new trigger guard that i want to fit to the stock. This trigger guard is nice for cold weather shoot with gloves but i dont want it on the rifle right now.

[Daryl]

Should make a great hunting rifle as it is a good style and appears to have enough drop in the cheek postion.  To me, a real hunting rifle starts at .54 and just gets better with an increase in size of bore - to about .75 being tops.   

I just picked up a .58 myself - it's a good calibre and easy to load for.  I find the larger the bore, the easier it is to find a load that shoots well.  maybe I'm just getting used to them.

I do suggest you put a flash-cup under the nipple, so the hammer's nose curls over the rear part before striking the nipple. This will help prevent copper cap fragments from embedding in your nice shiny eyeball.

Do you know what the twist is? Have you slugged the bore to find out it's dimensions, ei: groove depth, bore diameter, etc?

[northmn]

Nice looking gun.  I shot a CVA Mountain Rifle in 50 a friend had one time.  Would have used one if I didn't build my own and shoot left handed.  I shot it as well as anything else I ever shot.  Curretly starting on a 58.

DP

[frontier gander]

1:70 twist. Its also a 32" barrel.

I have not slugged the barrel yet. Nor have i figured out what ball i will shoot  out of it. I was planning on maybe a .562" ball with  a .020 patch. I like to keep loading and shooting without swabbing.

[Roger Fisher]

Did you lose that rear wedge?

Although my eyesight is not so hot, I notice that hammer nose to nipple kinda caticornered   If you have a problem with the caps not going off due to not being hit squarely by the hammer you can dig out your friendly dremel and open the nose cup larger so the hammer cup clears said cap and does not hit it on a corner and not fire.  You can also correct the part of the hammer cup that strikes the cap with said dremel so it hits the cap more squarely (flat - full on) 

While your at it you canmake said hammer nose deeper as suggested by Daryl!!

I do in fact have  such a hammer gun somewhere around here

[frontier gander]

Did you lose that rear wedge?

Although my eyesight is not so hot, I notice that hammer nose to nipple kinda caticornered   If you have a problem with the caps not going off due to not being hit squarely by the hammer you can dig out your friendly dremel and open the nose cup larger so the hammer cup clears said cap and does not hit it on a corner and not fire.  You can also correct the part of the hammer cup that strikes the cap with said dremel so it hits the cap more squarely (flat - full on) 

Hammer is hitting dead center of the nipple. I used a hammer off of a cva hawken, its bigger and looks better to me. Never had any problems in the 40 shots ive taken with it so far.

I hadnt put the other wedge pin in yet because the previous owner i got the wedge pins from, bent them rather than slightly peening the tenon instead. I hate when they do that. I also polished the lock internals, smoothest lock ive ever pulled back LOL.

Also i bought this rifle from deer creek brand new. Its not marked made in spain or anything. I think this is one of deer creeks barrels that they rifled on the Douglas rifling machine.

Need 3 more screws for the patch box.

[Daryl]

Round ball twist barrels are usually cut rifled, and such are usually .010" to .012" deep in the square grooved variety.  I've had a couple RB twist .58's and have used .575" balls and .020" denim patches, spit lubed, or with Hoppes#9 Plus for lube.  An oil or grease like mink oil or bear grease will work for hunting where the total number of shots without having to wipe are much fewer.  A nicely radiused crown allows loading this combination without difficulty. This load combination does not require wiping at any time - only cleaning after a day's shooting.

Due to fouling buildup in the powder chamber area, and possibility of it holding a spark or hot spot, some shooters of considerable experience and reputation advise wiping periodically, to remove or reduce this buildup in the "chamber".  Wiping very 20 shots or so should handle any potential problems.  I prefer not to wipe, but then, we rarely shoot more than 60 in a day.

If I was to reduce ball size to a .562", I'd probably go to a .025" denim patch at least.  .570" ball molds are available & for a round ball barrel, that's the smallest I'd go.  a .562" ball, with .020" patch both will not compress in the bottom of the grooves, which will allow gas blow by. A .570" ball with .020" patch, allows only .003" per side. This might be OK, but I prefer something a bit more snug-  so would use a .575" ball.

[frontier gander]

does anyone sell an affordable .570 mold? i dont cast balls that often so i was hoping for the $25 Lee mold. I have had 2 for my 45 50 and 54 for years without any problems + they are easy on the wallet.

[Daryl]

Let your fingers do that walking - try Lee first to see if they list it. If they list it, you can buy it from them or more cheaply from any of the retailers. trackofthewolf.com has aways come through for us.

[northmn]

As to a Douglas barrel, before buying a 570 mold I would buy a box of 575 ball to try.  Douglas barrels seemed to run a little larger with a lot of folks shooting 498 to 500 in a 50 and so forth.  I used to shoot 575 all the time in a 58, one using very heavy patching.  Really I have been buying a lot of swaged ball as I ran out of lead.  Just got a deal on 50 pounds of lead, at .80 per pound, that should last me, but still for some guns it just isn't worth the effort to cast.  100 rounds of 58 costs about 19.00 if you combine with other orders, which is still much cheaper than modern bullets. 

DP

[longcruise]

Gander, here is a pic of a .54 Deer Creek Rifle I built for my grand son.  Not the similarities!  I asked Deer Creek to do one of these kits for me in .58 but they would not go there.  The barrel on mine is nicely deep rifled but obviously a cva.  A great shooter though. 



Does this resemble your alternate trig guard?

[frontier gander]

yup thats the trigger guard on my rifle right now. Its not correct but it came with a bunch of parts i bought.

I plan on buying this cast steel trigger guard and browning it. MUCH better looking i think and adds a bit of sportiness to it LOL.
http://trackofthewolf.com/(S(a1ebfx45efmyaq45ca2xtm55))/categories/PARTDETAIL.ASPX?CATID=14&SUBID=155&STYLEID=688&PARTNUM=TG-DIMICK-I

[frontier gander]

well, you all better have given me good advice or else..... 

i ordered new sights for it along with a Lee .575" ball mold.

A .570 ball weighs 280 grains, what does a  575 weigh?

[chapmans]

That .575 may be hard to start, I have a CVA .58 and .570's are tight but shoot great but I put .565's in my loading block when hunting because they start and load easier in the field with the rod thats in the gun. I've only needed a second shot once in 35 yrs so it's not a big deal.
   Steve C.

[Daryl]

Shot a bunch of 575" RB's out of an approx. .575" bored, Italian Enfield Musketoon.  The .575" RB's I cast from a borrowed mound were just about exactly .575" all the way around, with a tiny sprues from a 4 cavity mould. They weigh slightly different, cavity to cavity, but for interest's sake, run 288.7 to 290.6gr.  The lead I used is about as close to absolutely pure as I've ever seen. There is no temperature that Will allow the lead to remain uncoloured as it it still turns blue, gold, purple, etc even at solidifying temps.  It is from the walls of an X-ray Hospital room.  At casting temp, the oxidation is rapid and the dipper must be cleaned of the oxidation crust often - about every 4 to 5 casts with that mould, about every 10 casts with a DC mould.
  My first .58 was a Zouave, which liked .575" balls and .020" denim patches and the second, an underhammer H&A(or whatever) so I used the same balls in it - Numrich barrel I presume, but it had ratchet rifling - a mistake, I also presume. Both guns liked the .575" and heavy denim patches. The third was a GRRW .58 1-1/8" X 34" tube on a Hawken Taylor made me - also liked the .575" and now the Musketoon also likes them but they're a bit snug as the ball won't drop down the bore naked, just sits on top.
 I can only use a .015" patch with the .575's as the rifling is only .003" deep at the muzzle, increasing to about .010" at the breech - or thereabouts. I put in a very short, 3/8" cone at the muzzle and rediused the edges of the crown so they load easily, even though larger than the bore's actual size. Due to being 5 groove, it's hard to measure, I suspect about .5735" to .574" actual measure. All this to say if you cannot use a .575" ball in a true .580" bore that has normal .010" or deeper rifling, your crown is not radiused enough or not smooth enough. Factory crowns are cut with a machine tool with straight sides, ie: no rounded surfaces, so leaves sharp edges that prevent easy loading and swaging of the ball and patch. These edges need to be smoothed and rounded, then you can shoot a descent ball and patch.

[chapmans]

  Daryl,
  It's all I can do to start a .570 in the .58 CVA barrel with a short starter it hurts my hand so I know a .575 would need a hammer with an aluminum starter. The crown is perfect it was done in my lathe and was centered with a dial indicator. I have installed a GM .58 in the gun and have no problems with .570's and it may shoot .575's but don't have a mold. I don't think you can assume every .58 will shoot a .575 I know mine won't. I have an old CVA .50 that you can barely start a .490 and the crown is perfect also, that's one of the first things I do when I get a gun is put a good crown on the barrel.I don't think the CVA gun's had as close of tolerencs or as deep of rifling as custom barrels, although I did have a GM .50 once that needed .509's to get it to shoot .495's would fall through. I too like the .58's they are good medicine on whitetails, that's the largest game animal we have here in Indiana.
  Steve C.

[Daryl]

That's OK Steve - use whatever you want.

  Actually, your .58 will load a .575" ball, even if the bore size happened to be the same .575" as the ball.  Currently, that's the size I am using in my .574" bored .577" Enfield - and it did very well yesterday too.  A bare ball will sit on top of the crown, yet it still loads easily with a .015" patch and shoots without fouling buildup - 60 shots yesterday - no wiping at any time.  However - if you want to load without a starter, then you have to use the smaller ball and maybe a thinner patch and usually have fouling buildup which demands wiping at some point. Use of LHV or Hoppe's Plus will reduce fouling even in loose combinations. If your barrel has very shallow rifling, then perhaps the smaller ball would be best for you.

As in all real competition rifles, the larger the ball and tighter the compression to the bottom of the grooves, the more accuracy potential the rifle has. For ease of shooting we have to loosen the reigns a bit, which is why I suggested a ball that was .005" under the bore size. This combination works in all  muzzleloading rifles - if they have a smooth radiused crown.  Use of a lathe makes the final shaping of the crown easy - just hold the emery against the angle cut muzzle's mouth as the lathe spins the barrel - perfect smooth and radiused, every time.

[Frizzen]

I have a old Zolie .58 Rem. musket and have always used a .575 ball and .022 patch. Shoots
under 3/4 groups at 50 yds. 60 grs. Goex FFF.

[hanshi]

Frizzen, my friend, that is exceptionally accuracy.  Decades ago I got a Zouave from Navy Arms and fired it a lot.  I procured the recommended Mine' and ball mold.  While I shot mostly Mine' I shot a fair amount of ball.  My ball mold was .562 and I still have both.  I never shot that rifle for group for some reason, but It was accurate enough with the ball to hit small targets.  It loaded normally and I never had to go to a thicker patch.  There is obviously a great deal of variation in .58 bore dimensions.  I no longer have than gun though I fired it for years.  Only thing I didn't like about it was the rear sight.

!Jozai Senjo!  " always present on the battlefield" 

[Daryl]

Flintr- I-too had an Antonio Zoli Zouave and I also used a .575" ball and .022" denim patch. They are very accurate. I recall it was exceptional at 100 yards when fed around 120gr. 2F.  I got it just after getting my copy of Lyman's second book and shot up to 180gr. 3F C&H, 180gr. 2F Meteor (Scottish powder) as well as 170gr. 2F GOX (at that time).  The accuracy did not change with the heavier loads, just shot flatter.  What really blew me away, was the low pressures reported by Lyman.

Of course, I changed the sights as issue sights were useless for shooting RB's.  I don't recall ever shooting minnies in it.  It's 72" twist was perfect for RB's and would shoot into 1-1/2" for 5 at 100yards off the bags with 120gr. on up. I was looking for a moose and bear load but sold the rifle before ever hunting with it.  I actually wanted the sporterized version listed in Lyman's book - The Buffalo Hunter model - struck me a good hunting rifle but never found one.

Around that time, I worked on a few Parker Hale Enfields - sight work - slotting the front sight base and soldering in silver blades that could be filed to zero. They had .577" bores with 48" twists and progressive depth rifling, but also shot round balls well- 1" at 50 yards with 80gr. 2F.

[frontier gander]

i'll see how it goes when everything comes in. I still have to buy the new trigger guard for it too so if that 575 doesnt work, i'll get the 562

[chapmans]

  As I recall the manual that came with my rifle recommened .562's and that's what I started out with, I did kill the the first deer with them, then I bought some .570 Speer swaged and the gun shot very well at the range, using a range rod, but in the field they were hard to start and push down with the 3/8 rod that came with the gun, so I would load the first shot at home with .570's and put .562',s or .565's depending what I had on hand, in the loading block. I have had this gun since it was new in 1981 and have rung it out. I shot this target at 150 yds in 1991 with Speer .570's, 90 gr of ffg Goex with pillow ticking it measures 1.250 ctr/ctr



   And here is a photo of the crown as you can see it has been turned for a piston starter as I shot it in competition at Friendship out to 200 yds.It may very well shoot .575's but as hard as the .570' start I think it would be darn near impossible to load in the field.

[hanshi]

I always regretted getting rid of the Zouave so a few years back I ordered an 1841 US "Mississippi" rifle in the original .54.  That rifle's fit & finish is second to none.  The Mississippi has to be the most handsome US military rifle ever.  It still shoots high but a lower step in the rear notch gives a good sight picture for normal hunting ranges.  It is also a bonafide tack driver with a variety of loads.  Using .530 balls & pillow ticking any charge of 3f from 50 - 110 grains works wonders.  I settled on 53 grains of 3f for an everyday & target load and 100 grains of the same for deer.

I've never been able to shoot groups like that at 100 yards with the open sights but my eyes are still good enough that I've fired several 5 shot groups at 50 yards of from 1 inch to 1 and a half inches.  It has what I'd call a tight .54 bore; pillow ticking being a little tough to seat.  I see no difference when I use a thinner patch material as far as accuracy is concerned and that's what I use most the time.  Trying to seat a .535 ball would make a preacher cuss.

!Jozai Senjo!  "always present on the battlefield"

[Daryl]

Chapman's - that's great accuracy.  Thanks for posting the pictures and especially those of the crown.  While the outside of the hole is nicely radiused out past the depth of the rifling, the innter corner of the land tops shows a bit sharp.  This will make the ball wad up a bit. It looks pretty good though and your accuracy certainly needs no improvement.  Often, to start a ball, I'll just put the cupped end of the starter shaft on the ball and while holding it with the other hand, give the knob a smack. This punches the ball with patch down 6" or whatever length the starter's shaft is. there is no damage to the ball and loading from there to the powder is easy.