Author Topic: Staking Staples  (Read 4048 times)

red owl

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Staking Staples
« on: March 23, 2015, 06:50:56 PM »
Track of the Wolf sells staples to be used as under lugs and they are staked in place. As I understand, you drill a shallow hole and then drive one end of the staple into the hole, the staking tool looks like a nail setter/center punch with a slot. The slot goes around the staple and you tap around it to secure.
   I have lots of questions....
1. How deep do you drill?
2. Is the bottom of the drilled hole cone shaped? Or do you need a special drill that creates a flat bottom?
3. Do you "tap" or hammer the material around the staple?
4. How well does the staple hold?
Real life experiences appreciated- also, it is supposed to be period correct. Any information on that welcomed.  8)

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Staking Staples
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2015, 07:39:45 PM »
Quote
I have lots of questions....
1. How deep do you drill? I think mine were around .070 deep but be sure to leave plenty of metal between bore and bottom of the hole, usually .100" is safe, maybe a little less.
2. Is the bottom of the drilled hole cone shaped? I used a regular drill bit so it looks like the tip of the drill bit.
 Or do you need a special drill that creates a flat bottom? I didn't but it might help
3. Do you "tap" or hammer the material around the staple? Yes, Track of the Wolf sells a little staking tool but I have used a small dull chisel to sink the metal around the foot of the staple. Works as well as the tool.
4. How well does the staple hold? Mine were very tight, plenty tight to hold the wood to the barrel.

I have made my own staples out of drill rod. Just grind or file a groove just above the foot of the staple. The groove has to be deep enough for you to hammer the barrel steel tightly around the groove where the staple will not easily pull out of the hole.

I don't use them anymore, I prefer to make the lugs and cut shallow (.040") dovetails. Just seems more traditional and just as easy.
Dennis
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 07:50:33 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline JDK

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Re: Staking Staples
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2015, 07:56:11 PM »
Traditional?  Yep and some guys use 'em with success and love 'em.....and I imagine it's much easier to move the metal around the staple's foot on those old iron barrels or those of softer steel.  Like Dennis I won't use 'em anymore either as my only experience with them was trying to use them on Green Mountain barrels where the alloy they use is considerably harder than some others.  Big pain in the rear trying to stake metal over the foot to hold 'em, and as Dennis indicated they just never seem "tight" to me, always wiggle a bit....though I've only had one pull out.

Word of caution.....don't try to peen the metal too aggressively, i.e. don't hit that punch too hard, because depending on the barrel wall thickness you can dimple the bore.....even on a hard Green Mountain barrel.  Go ahead and ask me how I know!!! :(

Oh, and I've got a couple of those tools and some staples.  I'd post 'em for sale but my karma can't afford that kinda hit.  :D

Enjoy, J.D.
J.D. Kerstetter

Turtle

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Re: Staking Staples
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2015, 10:45:02 PM »
  I was reusing a barrel from a previous build and had to relocate the underlug removing the staked in one I had installed. I was always suspicious of their strength, so here was an opportunity for a test. I couldn't pull it out by hand, I had to pry with a screwdriver. I was impressed. this was with tracks round stock staples using their staking tool. I set the depth stop on my drill press when drilling the holes  to be sure of no whoops.
                                                     turtle

red owl

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Re: Staking Staples
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2015, 11:16:02 PM »
Okay, now I'll come clean. What I am really doing is trying to recreate a pre-1840 folding knife.  The earlier had the liner and bolsters drop forged from a solid piece of iron.  Around say 1825-1830 sheet metal and stamping was becoming more common and "applied" bolsters started showing up. I thought the bolsters were soldered on the liners but no- that is 1900's and even today not common. There is a small tab or rivet protruding from the inside of the bolster. It is fit through a hole in the liner and peen hammered to hold the bolster on the liner. That one rivet plus the blade pin or rear pin on the spring keep the bolsters in place.
   Well.....how to recreate this. I could drill all the way through the bolster and peen both ends but that would not copy the original. The original probably wasn't a pin soldered into a blind hole as the solder could run and create troubles.  My only conclusion is the pin had to fit into a blind hole and be staked.
   My problem is the bolsters I plan to use are going to be engraved so I don't want the hole so deep that the engraving hits the hole and there is a small void or air space.  The bolsters will be about 1/8" thick in the middle and towards the scale so that would give me the most room. From what you have stated, I think I can drill 1/16" deep and stake the pin and be okay.  I guess if it doesn't work- just do something else.  In any event the coned bottom of the hole seems okay so I'll try that.
   I've made one period folder with integral liners/bolsters- took a long time. The originals with forged with a drop hammer and mandrel and turned out very quickly.
   Period bolsters could be iron, brass, white brass (nickel silver). I'm using brass so staking ought to be easy- thanks for the feed back.

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Staking Staples
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2015, 07:11:17 AM »
The staples WERE used on period guns.   I restored a fancy Gonter flinter (flint then percussion) that obviously came out of a production shop that had staples made from square stock.   Since I didn't take any staples out,  I don't know how the part in the barrel was shaped; but Dennis' suggestion makes sense.   That rifle was a graduate class in efficient longrifle production.   I am sure they had a jig to make and install those staples.   I believe those, and many of the parts of that rifle were mass produced.   All the mounts, including the ones we normally make from sheet, were cast.   It made very fancy pierced patch boxes and side plates and fluted nose pieces relatively simple as long as you were making lots of the exact same fancy rifle.  ;)   

red owl

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Re: Staking Staples
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2015, 12:27:20 AM »
Well I gave it a go. Picked 1/16" rod (brass) the knife bolster is 1/8" thick brass. The 1/16" bit drilled a blind hole 1/16" deep. The rod didn't seem very tight in the hole. In the future I would check on the wire gauge drills and try something just a tad smaller and drive in the 1/16" rod. I used a round needle file (pointy tip) to set the rod in place. I very lightly tapped around the perimeter, using the file as a setter. MAN I couldn't believe how that tightened up everything. I can't pull the pin out. In any event, I'm pretty certain that is how it was done on period knives. Off hand I never would have thought such a shallow hole would work- thanks to all. New method learned  8)

Online FDR

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Re: Staking Staples
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2015, 03:40:06 AM »
I understand the desire to be original but the pin was probably forged as a part of the bolster  and now you have a pin in a very shallow hole and hope it will hold.  Since you are not really original anyway you might want to consider a better way.  What I do is drill all the way through and then use a taper pin reamer to cone shape the hole slightly. If you match the pin and bolster materials (very important) you will not be able to find the pin after it is peened into the hole and filed smooth/finished.

Fred

docone

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Re: Staking Staples
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2015, 04:28:36 AM »
I use a  1/16 drill. I drill to the shank of the twist, just at the transition to the V to the taper. I then use a  1/16 drill that I ground the tip off. That gives me a blind hole. It cleans up the first hole making it square and flat. I then take the wire that I will use either a staple or pin, I drill a 1/16 Hole through a piece of steel, making a small open area that I can peen down the bottom of the wire.
This I set in the hole, and with a small hardened set, I planish the metal around the shank. This migrates the metal down over the flat end of the wire. A blind rivet. I go around the wire untill the metal is even and depressed.
You gotta drill them out when that is done.
Makes a strong, cold joint.

red owl

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Re: Staking Staples
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2015, 05:53:54 PM »
Well........I've done a fair amount in various ways. I know I can epoxy, solder, drill through and pin, etc. etc.  What I'm trying to do now is replicate the traditional method.  When I was a kid I tore apart a boy scout pocket knife to learn how it was made. There was this internal stub on the inside of the bolster that went through a hole in the liner. At the time I never thought about how that stub came to exist on the inside of the bolster.
   On another forum dedicated to knives I asked the expert and he said they were "chopped".  I asked what "chopped" meant and he never gave me an answer.
Possible Answers:
1. A cold chisel "chopped" away surrounding metal- leaving a stub. An apprentice in a cutlery shop could likely do this for a nominal expensive.
2. A pin was staked into a blind hole.

From what I have learned so far the earliest pocket knives had iron sides (bolster and liner) that was forged from a solid piece. I believe a drop hammer and mandrel were used- an iron bar heated red and held over a form (mandrel) and the drop hammer forged out the thin flat liner part and left the bolster area thick. A hardy cut to length. Holes were punched and maybe reamed/drilled true.
   In the early 1800's and then coming on strong mid-1800's was the appearance of less expensive sheet metal and metal stamping methods.  Now a thin liner could be stamped and the bolster "applied" to the liner.  As stated the bolster could be chiseled so as to form the stub that went through a hole in the liner. The blind hole and staked pin could have also been done. I have tried to find out how things were done but haven't found an answer.
   Off hand, being a person of modern times, my feeling is the cheaper method would be to drill the blind hole and stake the stub in place.  The trouble is, some of the early bolsters are very thin, you don't have much wiggle room in drilling the depth of the hole- it has to be deep enough to stake a pin but too deep and you'll go all the way through the bolster.
   On prior attempts I soldered bolsters to liners.  If the liner is very thin when the joint cools, on occasion (not always) you can actually get warped liners.  I am told the early knives never used solder to attach bolsters to liners. That boy scout knife- when I punched out the stub the bolster fell off, the stub was the only thing holding it in place.
   Finally, the traditional method IS THE THING.  For example a rat tail knife tang through a one piece wood handle. I could use traditional cutler rosin or epoxy glue- no one will ever know the difference. BUT I KNOW, so I use cutler rosin (boiled pine pitch and powdered charcoal or brick).