CUTAWAY OR- CROSS -SECTION OF LONG RIFLE BARREL

[CHARLY]

Hi --

can anyone show me a cutaway  section of the thickness of the BREECH  area
of a long rifle barrel --foto or diagram or sketch?
just to show the thickness /taper of the walls of this steel barrel breech
and what alloy /steel type is used to machine /forge a std Penn rifle barrel ?

would love to know exactly the difference in  OD  and ID  --dimensions of octagonal or round barrel ---

(have scrapped stainess boiler pipe )---( obviously too hazardous /brittle)
a machinist claims he can cut machine a black powder  barrel for me --IF  I supply the correct
dimensions/steel alloy type etc

would be eternally grateful for such valuable info --(still learning)
regards -- charly

[Okefinokee Outlaw]

Charly,  I certainly can't answer your question, but I don't think there is any one specific dimension.  Barrel weight and caliber will affect this.  There is a minimum thickness required, but I can't answer that.  Rather than  pay a machinist who never machined a barrel, why not purchase a barrel from a reputable barrel manufacturer?

[JDK]

Charly is in an African country where, even if he could get someone to ship him one, the authorities would likely frown on it.

Enjoy, J.D.

[okawbow]

Hi --

can anyone show me a cutaway  section of the thickness of the BREECH  area
of a long rifle barrel --foto or diagram or sketch?
just to show the thickness /taper of the walls of this steel barrel breech
and what alloy /steel type is used to machine /forge a std Penn rifle barrel ?

would love to know exactly the difference in  OD  and ID  --dimensions of octagonal or round barrel ---

(have scrapped stainess boiler pipe )---( obviously too hazardous /brittle)
a machinist claims he can cut machine a black powder  barrel for me --IF  I supply the correct
dimensions/steel alloy type etc

would be eternally grateful for such valuable info --(still learning)
regards -- charly

Charley, I am currently making a barrel from steel I bought on eBay. I will rifle mine, but it actually came with a very straight, smooth .50 caliber hole, and could be used as a smooth bore as is. Here are the specs...seamless round steel tube.
ASTM A519  1026 CDS SRA 1 1/4" od, .375" wall.
This is true seamless tube, not welded and drawn tube. It has been annealed and stress relieved. You local machine shop should be able to order this steel. Your machinist could then mill it octagon for you. You could have a proper breech plug fitted and proof test the barrel with about 240 grains 3f black powder and 2 patched balls. If there is no change in the diameter, then you're good to go. Don't ever stand behind a barrel when you proof test it. Use a long fuse.
I have a smaller diameter barrel, 1" od. x .515" id that I proofed with that load 4 shots, that passed just fine. Don't use any home made barrel without proofing it to your satisfaction. There could always be a defect in the steel.

[Mark Elliott]

Charly is an African country where, even if he could get someone to ship him one, the authorities would likely frown on it.

Enjoy, J.D.

There are also the duties he has to pay, even on a gift.  I have sent him a couple of relatively inexpensive (to me) things, and I have to struggle over a cost to put on the items I ship.   Because of the currency exchange rate and the heavy duties, even a modest gift by our standards can be quite costly to Carl even if we don't charge him anything.   

I could ship Carl a whole set of parts as a gift, I have offered; but he couldn't afford to pay the duties even if it is sent as a gift.   Such a situation should make everyone thankful to be a United States citizen, even with the problems we face.

With all the above in mind, Carl, I will be shipping you some drawings on Monday.   Hopefully,  they will help.  I will only put the cost of the printing ($20 USD) on the customs forms. 

[Mark Elliott]

Carl,

Here is a link to Rice barrel's web site with full dimensions on all their barrels.  http://www.ricebarrels.com/chart.html

These measurements are in inches.   Caliber is in hundreds of an inch as in 45 caliber is a .45" bore with about .010" deep rifling.   There is lots of info here and on other web sites about building a simple rifling machine and rifling a barrel. 

The breech plugs have about .5" of threads in 5/8" - 20 or 3/4" - 16.  You can find detailed instructions on this site about how to breech a barrel. 

 The steel that most barrel makers use is 12L14 which is a leaded mild steel.   The original barrels were highly refined wrought iron which is very soft as is the 12L14.   You MUST ONLY USE BLACK POWDER in these barrels.   You can't use your salvaged fireworks propellant, at least, not safely.

I hope that answers your original question.

[Ky-Flinter]

.......  You can find detailed instructions on this site about how to breech a barrel. 

Charly,

Mark is right.  You can find much information on the topics you've asked about by using the Search feature.  The Search button is at the top of the ALR Forums homepage.

Or, even easier, here's a link.....  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?action=search

-Ron

[CHARLY]

 GOODNESS!
Well ----- I /m overwhelmed /overjoyed at the huge response to my
barrel queries --
Thanku all so very much --- MARK ELLIOT --FOR PRESIDENT!
THANKU- JDK --- THATS  wonderful --great ideas ---really appreciate
 THANKU  --KY -FLINTER ---- and  OKABOW--- you  have all given me hope /more dtermination---- BOB ROLLER --- GRACIAS!
again --to my rescue ---you are all superstars !
and now
I have still to sort through this mine of info /data /dimensions
WOW ----
    THE  Local lathe man --hope he,s prepared /informed on steel alloys - I will hit him with all this data ----he wants a small painting in return ---good deal !

or he,d better get enlightened pronto -
so --12L14  steel solid pipe section ---is required----brilliant !  --THATS what he kept asking !

I had no idea --was told to use a softer steel rather than brittle stainless!
so ---start again ---or risk shattered skull
round barrel /as opposed to HEX --  has to be much easier to inlet /bed /seat --- but
HEX barrel seating? --  got to research  the correct shape in the wood forearm "bed"
 cannot be easy by hand tools ----6 sided barrel --?  --only for you professionals
looks nice --I agree --but will start with simple half round rasp --no fancy milling /router  /machines in the bush ---
 that wonderful book you  sent me ( building the Penn long rifle---MARK ---  shows a chisel gouge half round- -made it --for barrel inletting
scraping that barrel "slot" channel-- (practised ---@!*% hard --but it works --got it really crooked!--
wonder how( machinist--)  going to drill the 0.5 calibre bore ?  in the steel rod ?
would love to see an actual drilling in progress --this is getting really very intriguing -fascinating---
 the DUTIES  are no problem ---pleased to pay the bureaucrats --at least my parcel was not confiscated /stomped on ---( gotta grease a few palms ) that's the African way
happiness is a smiling bent customs official !
in  ROME  you--- etc ---go figure--


 but  PLEASE --a sketch /drawing or  foto of the CUTAWAY --- OR A CROSS SECTION  of a std BARREL
  A picture will show how the  INTERNAL WALLS GRADUALLY TAPER ? I need a visual guide
with the dimensions of the wall thickness -DIMINISHING ?  gradually from breech to end of barrel-----or are the walls  UNIFORM thickness through out entire barrel length??
 OR  am I wrong---?
ok--- if  OD IS  1.25 inch -----
and  barrel WALL IS .375 INCH THICK ---then
--YEOW ! WALL OF BREECH ? .375--plus .375=o.75--inch-minus 1.25 inch
= 0.5 bore --1/2 inch ----ok --got it --
 Good  Lord ---.375 inch thick breech walls !
convert to mm--roughly 8-10 mm thick breech walls ?
 NOW I HAVE THE DIMENSIONS ---FINALLY !
 obviously that black powder creates some diabolical stress /detonation !

 no wonder my measly 2.5 mm wall pipe is far too weak !
even with a sleeve pipe pressed over the 1/2 inch pipe --5 mm--
is inadequate --ok ---
it has not popped ----yet !--but when it does ---oh dear !

but surely there is a/WALL THICKNESS taper inside the barrel ? Towards the tip ?
a picture would settle this matter -let me go  search those sites on barrel .blacksmithing
got to be some illustration showing a simple cross section --

many thanks ---for all that PRECIOUS DATA ---
appreciate more than you can imagine
  B--

[okawbow]

Charley,
The dimensions I gave were for the barrel I'm making. It will be for a "chunk" gun. It will be very heavy. The other barrel im working on, is 25mm o.d., with 6mm wall thickness, for about 13mm bore size. I will grind 8 flats on that barrel to make it about 15/16" straight octagon. Or possibly taper and flare it for a slight "swamp".

These barrels are made from 1026 steel, not the 12l14 leaded steel. The steel is fairly easy to machine, as I have reamed them and drilled and tapped for the breech plug. I don' t think 12l14 steel is available in a DOM tube. You wouldn't want to cold work 12l14 steel anyway, as it can get brittle. It needs to be drilled and reamed from a solid bar.

[Mark Elliott]

or he,d better get enlightened pronto -
so --12L14  steel solid pipe section ---is required----brilliant !  --THATS what he kept asking !

Carl,

As far as I know, there is no 12L14 pipe/tubing.   Barrel makers machine a barrel from a solid round (at least 1 1/4") of 12L14.    You drill the bore and then machine he outer profile of the barrel relative to the bore.   Some folks use a milling machine to profile the barrel,  others use a metal shaper.   I am not sure your machinist really knows what he is getting into.

Rifle barrels, at least for longrifles, are almost always octagonal.   Unless you have round gunstocking planes,  there is NO advantage to a round barrel over an octagonal barrel as to inletting.   In fact,  if all you have are flat chisels,  it might be easier to inlet an octagon barrel.  Use the procedure in the book I sent you.  A lot of people inlet a barrel with that procedure. 

Oh, and by the way,  I don't consider being President a good thing.   You would have to be crazy as one of us gun makers to want that job. 

 

[CHARLY]

 
THANKYOU so much again and again --

Mark ----for  Senator /Congressman ?
you are a great  person -no matter how hard you deny it --
 DEFRANCE  agrees with me --so do many others-
NO-ONE  has ever bothered to go the extra distance ---with correct data /info -

I must be blessed /extremely fortunate ---what A GREAT  group of unselfish
long rifle master builders --
willing to divulge all those amazing techniques--to a clumsy old novice in  Africa--

now I have got that sorted

I did go to the Barrel website you suggested a Mark--

and that ---was the key ---sorted out all my many annoying questions
 good heavens ---that barrel breech is SCARY  -REALLT THICK AT BREECH
 8 -10 MM ---
so ---my machinist has solid rod --OKABOW  says I can use 1026 as well as
12 l14  leaded soft steel

I will put all this info at the machinists shop --as his Eengleesh is rather limited
 ( Spaniard)---I thick he will be clued up --
does some stellar work on that battered old lathe--
( boring steel may be a challenge
all I want is a 32 inch jaeger barrel --40 calibre is big enuf---
hex barrel is out --he has no shaping /or milling machines --just have to settle for round c/s

that begs another question --
does one  TAPER the external diameter of the barrel --lengthways --ie -like my 375 Holland & Holland
was shaped ?
is 40 cal ---equal to what ?  say a 404 rigby or  Mauser--

I think that's big enuf
suppose he can also machine a lead mould for the balls --

but first things first --have a long wait --he ,s got a lot of more important backlog work

ok ---really appreciate all the detailed info
cant go wrong now --I hope
regards  C

[Bob Roller]

 Here's some info.The chance of boring a straight hole with a lathe and ordinary drill bit to 32 inches is zero.
 IF you can find a bar of 1026 with a pilot hole of 1/4 inch you may have a chance.I drilled many barrels in Bill Large's shop in years past and he had a deep hole drill that used drills with a singe cutting edge that were hollow and carried high oil pressure to wash the shavings out. I am telling you this as one who has had experience and to prevent disappointment.There was also a special drill grinder that established the angles needed to assure a straight hole was the likely outcome.

Bob Roller

[CHARLY]

 Thanku Bob  Roller
appreciate that advice very much ---

I HAD  always wondered --how is this dude --( or any machinist )
going to find a 32 inch special boring drill or tool

I have -quite honestly never seen such a drilling/BORING-- process
( except in  Copper rich --  Northern  Zambia OPEN PIT MINES-
-one Italian had a huge well equipped  mine workshop
his Capstan AND  turret lathes were monsters --to bore /machine
enormous castings --for  USA  made 200 TON  --- Electra-haul earth mover giants

but here in the backwoods---we aint got much--have to adapt /improvise--
maybe ---will strip that old Ford  Courier STEERING--shaft
 Zambian /Mozambique /Tanzanian-poachers --all swore by this hollow shaft ---
all were converted to barrels---but  simply have to test this metal--first--
 I will send you the dimensions as soon as its dismantled -
no idea what steel alloy Ford employs in steering column shaft guide --
how do I determine  what the steel is ?
 maybe  Ford  Motor co website --has details of steel they employ --looks like a longshot!

I assume its pretty tough steel --knowing how tough  Courier pick-ups are --many here--
but will proceed with caution --if my Spanish machinist cannot find a suitable drill --I am sure he can borrow /order one somewhere--
I have not a clue to his equipment --/skills --just hope for the best--
will send fotos of a miracle if he can bore it to 40 cal-
 appreciate the info -- I would be floundering /lost --without you guys --most grateful to all -
learning faster than any institution can teach ----
regards --- Carl
 thanku so much --

[Mark Elliott]

Carl,

I would think your machinist could get a piece of drill rod and make a drill.   After all the steel we are using for the barrel is relatively soft. 

I would, at the very least, taper the barrel, slightly.   You know, you could still make a swamped octagon barrel.  You would just turn the profile (to the corners of the octagon, which you could calculate from the dimensions given on Rice's web site)  on the lathe and then file the flats.   

[Pennsylvania Dutchman]

I drilled my 41 1/2" .62 cal. barrel in my lathe with a twist drill, but I wouldn't try it with a bore as small as .40 cal. I used a piece of 1 7/16" 1144 Stressproof and drilled it with a 19/32" drill. The drill is a straight shank twist drill with oil holes to the tip and a IIRC 1/2-13" threaded hole in the shank for oil the connection. I drilled as deeply as I could with the drill, then screwed on a 12" shank and drilled as deeply as I could with that. I then replaced the shank with one long enough to drill thru. I used lots of Mobilmet Gamma cutting oil and cleared the chips about every 1/2" or less of drilling. The wall on the exit hole was only about .025" thicker on the thickest side compared to the thin side. I then reamed the bore with an armoury square reamer from the drilled hole approximately at .605 to .620 finished bore. The first hole I drilled with this same drill and setup was in a piece of 1 1/2" 4150 Q&T, and it drilled as straight as the 1144, but the material wasn't any good. So, I bought a piece of 1144. I have a very good lathe, I doubt if this would be possible on one that has considerable wear. Like I said, I probably wouldn't try this on a bore as small as .40, and I wouldn't expect to get these results every time with a twist drill, but it can be done. They did invent gun drills for a reason. Charly's best option would probably be as Okawbow said, 1026 seamless tube. It reams very nicely with a square reamer, and as Mark said the flats can be filed. The square reamer can be made by hand and also turned by hand to produce a very smooth bore. A .375 or 3/8" bore tube would ream to .400 without any problems.
Mark Poley

[Mark Elliott]

I just wanted to point out that if you file the flats on the barrel,  they don't have to be perfect.   I think I have yet to see a commercially produced barrel that had all the flats square, and as I drawfile most to finish them, they always end up a little rounded anyway.   If you look at the original barrels, they are even rougher.   The bottoms usually look like they were filed with what we would call a rasp.   I am sure one of my Nicholson 49's would make quick work of shaping up a barrel but they are too expensive (the rasps) to use like that.  Although, I suspect $50 may seem like a small price to pay when it comes to draw filling an entire hand forged barrel.  I think I would still break the scale with on of the Boggs rejects (can't be sharpened again).

[okawbow]

I'll probably use an angle grinder to rough out the flats on my barrel before draw filing them. I plan to make a jig that holds the barrel and has guides to let me know when I get close. I'll only need to grind off 1/32" for each flat. It won't be much more work to swamp the barrel after it is octoganal.

Where there's a will, theres a way.

[tecum-tha]

The caliber depends on what you want to do with it. If you want to build a German style Jaeger rifle, then .40 cal is much too small.
Recommended calibers as to the old guild documents/recommendations was .58 to about .70.
I just cut off a spanish .50 cal rifled percussion muzzleloading barrel (unused CVA barrel) and can measure the wall thickness for you, but is is easily derived from the outside dimensions of 15/16" =23.8mm. The distance between the lands is .50 =12.7mm, the grooves are about 0.01" deep (0.25mm). So the wall at the breech of this barrel is 5.3mm on each side of the bore.
It looks like this (percussion pedersoli breech) which is not recommended for flintlock use. Use the traditional flat faced breech plugs.
Here is the picture:

[Ezra]

You know guys, while we cannot send Charley a barrel or proper components, why the $#*! can't we just send him a couple of solid round rods of 12L14 of the appropriate length?  I'd kick in some funds for the rod(s) and/or shipping.  I mean so long as it doesn't get Charley sent to some craphole African prison.


Ez

[kaintuck]

I actually saw a sword maker use a metal spokeshave on a sword blank......I never knew they could do that......so, round to flat could be done....by hand......


Best of times charley!!!....lots of elbow grease ahead of you!

Marc n tomtom

[Mark Elliott]

I have sent Carl some small pieces of spring steel of minimal value, a few dollars.   The thing is , that even if you give him something, he has to pay the duty on the item based on the value you put on the customs forms.   YOU can go to Federal prison for lying on these forms.  So, you have to consider carefully,  the value you report.   You would have to contact Carl and give him the value of the steel that you would have to put on the customs forms so that he can tell you if he can afford the duty or not.   It is not just a matter of HIM getting in trouble for what is sent to him.   This isn't a matter of the South African government being anti-gun.  It is about duties charged on imported goods.  It is all about the money, and the inability to just give someone something if they live in another country.   

[shortbarrel]

Bob, hate to cut you down a little. but I just drilled a 40 inch piece of 12L14 40 inches long, on one of my lathes, using a twist drill. Drill was 3\8 and the run out was 1\64. If the tip of the drill is ground right and honed and started correctly onto the steel everything usually comes out ok. I use a lever arraignment, not the tail stock to feed and clear the chips. After the hole is drilled then the fun begins, counter boring and reaming and rifling. Made many barrels this way.

[CHARLY]

  THANKU EVERY BODY FOR ALL THE VERY INTERESTING advice and tech notes

 appreciate very much

luckily -have found a supplier of 12L14 and other tube /bar hollow mild steel
 one metre length --
 MACSTEEL   sales rep in  USA  contacted me ---( Johanne EHLERS)
 cape town are processing my order

JOHANNE  is sending me a stock list of barrel suitable steel
( says you cannot weld on leaded 12 /L 14   mild steel)

250 km away --I should have a chunk of steel  being sent ---36 inch long

 but I am not convinced ----due to all the above debates on drilling a 40 0r 50 cal bore
that it CANNOT be drilled correctly here ----- too many unknowns --

 I await the steel rep ---who somehow knows black powder barrels very well
has said exactly what Mark and others advised
(he is in Thailand ---back 2 moro

will see what he recommends
and a reliable drilling expert----has to be contacted

no idea what all this will cost -----will keep waiting
Custom monkeys must be toying with the steel Mark sent to me over a month ago
still no word ---suspicious sods ---3rd world morons spoil any creativity I had--make me ill

staring /dreaming at the fabulous locks /stocks shown actual size in the Track  Wolf catalog
 Mark sent me ---
its driving me bonkers---cannot get over the fabulous range /styles skill --dead accurate siler and other locks ---
I can copy rather badly & dream on --
but it makes me keep repeating /re-designing the tumbler /cock hammer
 redid another flashpan ----included the lip extension to the flashpan I could not  figure out
----last 12 attempts
practise makes perfect --
Ford courier steering shaft is 4.5 mm thick walls ---but 17 mm diam hole --
ie 26mm  OD
 17 MM  ID
  wonder what calibre 17 mm diam is ?
looks like tough steel ---maybe too brittle --wont expand like  correct 12 L14

   but will try it ---if the  MACSTEEL  stuff is too expensive --

 SPECIAL THANKS to KAINTUCK,
shortbarrel --;/-EZRA, tecum-tha--,-OKABOW-,- Pennsyvania  Dutchman
Bob  ROLLER ,
  and  SIR MARK ELLIOT
  FOR  great support ---
( tried to post a foto of progress /failures  but 800MB  is too big for this forum
)    regards --- bush flintman

[okawbow]

Charley, you steering shaft is about 1 1/32" O.D. With a .67 caliber bore. The wall thickness of almost 3/16" should be plenty, IF the tube is true seAmless steel. If it has a visible weld seam; I wouldn't use it. You might be able to use a 3/4" breech plug. Or a 19mm plug.

[Mark Elliott]

Carl,

I only sent you a small package with some scraps of 1095.   I just can't imagine how any customs could have a problem with a little scrap steel.    Of course,  when you are dealing with government (any government) employees anything is possible.  I will see if I can't dig out the tracking slip.