Author Topic: Stepped wrist  (Read 9106 times)

Offline Nordnecker

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Stepped wrist
« on: April 02, 2015, 02:48:59 PM »
While looking through old posts, I came across a picture of a gun with a stepped wrist. A search for these yielded  other posts and comments but no pics. I'd like to see more of these guns and learn a little about their history/ provenance.
Any links or info would be appreciated.
Thanks
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kaintuck

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2015, 04:16:30 PM »
Look for my Christian spring rifle build and Ken's finished one..........

I call my build the "beast" ;) she's so big..............

marc n tomtom

Offline RAT

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2015, 04:36:16 PM »
2 books...

The jaeger book that Jim Chambers sells and the book "Moravian Gunmakers of the American Revolution" published by the KRA.

I like the photographic connections these books make between the German guns and the continuation of the style by German-trained gunmakers such as Albrecht after arriving in America.
Bob

Offline E.vonAschwege

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2015, 05:19:24 PM »
Nordnecker, the KRA offers a CD with photos of Christians Spring guns, many which have stepped wrists, and there is a book on Moravian gun making with the same rifles in it.  The early American guns with stepped wrists are often considered a link between the German jaegers and the classic American longrifle. 

Don't let the larger breech sections and heavy wrists trick you into thinking that these are clumsy or bulky.  Contrary to popular belief, these guns aren't that big.  While they have large components and dimensions through the wrist and breech, aesthetically they are still very trim and feel great to shoulder. 
-Eric
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kaintuck

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2015, 06:36:05 PM »
Oh YEAH Eric..............but the diff between one of these babies and, like your last SMR is ... :P

Paris Hilton VS Briney Spears  waist lines...............::)

mine IS getting better, she shoulders perfect to cheek weld and sight line~~but that BUTT..........she being a 54 cal tho, I will bless a nice big butt I'm sure~~~ ;D

marc an tomtom

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2015, 06:51:36 PM »
Contemporary gun with a stepped wrist:



Many Jaegers were made with this stepped wrist feature.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2015, 12:53:23 AM »
It's a Germanic thing....
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Offline gunmaker

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2015, 02:21:57 AM »
Acer, what guard is that, I'd like one for a Lehigh--if it's close to "right"   Tom

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2015, 03:45:46 AM »
Stepped wrists, also known as stepped toes, are also common in Virginia rifles, both early rifles and early 19th century rifles.   I made my chunk gun with a slight stepped toe/wrist.    It lets you put a little more curve in your toe, which some of us like.  

« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 03:48:02 AM by Mark Elliott »

kaintuck

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2015, 02:27:53 PM »
Nice riffle Mark......

Marc n tomtom

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2015, 03:20:18 PM »
Gunmaker, that t guard doesn't even resemble a Lehigh guard.  There are several available from TOW, Dave Keck, and MLBS, that are much more appropriate.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2015, 04:09:42 PM »
I think Track might carry that guard. In the gun above, I used it as a fowler/smoothe rifle guard.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline gunmaker

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2015, 06:47:27 PM »
Thanks guys, I just like the curl on extension, maybe I'll use it on something else....Tom

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2015, 10:12:45 PM »
Here are some pictures of a Virginia rifle by John Honaker. It has a very pronounced stepped wrist.   http://aspenshadeltd.com/inventory_hon.html
Joel Hall

Offline JTR

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2015, 06:48:38 PM »
Here are some pictures of a Virginia rifle by John Honaker. It has a very pronounced stepped wrist.   http://aspenshadeltd.com/inventory_hon.html

But like in a lot of things, too pronounced just makes it look clunky.

John
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Offline Stophel

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2015, 09:49:25 PM »
Stepped wrists are found on guns from Spain, Italy, and Germany.  Of course, German gunsmiths is how it "got here".  I have found that primarily, step wristed guns tend to come from the northern half of the German lands, more or less.  The form of the butts vary, but generally don't display any specific regional trait (with the exception that round-bottomed stepped wrist stocks are a Prussian form, and tend to be found coming from Prussia and surrounding areas...or by gunsmiths imitating the Prussian form....so... can be from anywhere!  Clear as mud, right?.  Very similar guns were also made in Sweden, and can prove tricky until one learns the details and "feeling" of the guns).

Only ones of mine that I have photos of.  A German rifle of Prussian form.  Basically after the Pistor miliary rifle (there are a lot of this type of military rifle that still exist, all of the same basic form, as many of the Protestant states were copying the Prussians).  I'm actually not a fan of the distinctive round cheekpiece (most German guns, including Prussian, don't have them), but at least the customer let me make a different sideplate other than that hideous Brown Bess-looking lumpy thing...   :D



This is not a great example of my work, as I probably built it over 10 years ago (and reworked twice), but it's the only finished gun of my own that I actually have!  (the carpenter's house is the one with the leaky roof)  I intend to remedy that situation soon...



Can't see much here.  This gun is nearly as old as the one of mine.  I wish I had it back, actually, just so I could take a lot more wood off the wrist behind the breech tang!  Kinda fat around there.  Otherwise, I still like the gun.  An interpretation of a pre-Revolutionary Northampton county gun, based on a conglomeration of early Northampton styles.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 10:08:36 PM by Stophel »
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kaintuck

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2015, 03:33:01 PM »
Stophel.....there you go again, using them big words!!!

I'm glad there are those that will begin to use and build the nice differences in antique rifles. Making a "new" personal school rifle. While those German builds are HC, the look to be a Rosie O'Donnal rifle :P
The Christain Spring rifle while being thinner some, appeals more to me.....and tomtom won't wanna use it for a scratching post!

Nice work on ALL of them Stophel, but we like that bottom one best....tomtom and I that is ;D


Marc n tomtom

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2015, 04:27:28 PM »
Don't get the idea that Germanic guns are chunky, there really isn't any extra wood on them. Their size comes from large barrel breeches and wide buttplates plus usually 12" or less trigger reach. All combined gives a far different look, but it's only an illusion. All the old jeagers I have handled are quite racey, the hunting guns being quite light and handy.
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

kaintuck

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2015, 04:59:24 PM »
Don't get the idea that Germanic guns are chunky, there really isn't any extra wood on them. Their size comes from large barrel breeches and wide buttplates plus usually 12" or less trigger reach. All combined gives a far different look, but it's only an illusion. All the old jeagers I have handled are quite racey, the hunting guns being quite light and handy.

Can't help it Mike.....WOOF for that 1st one is looking big!

Marc n tomtom

Offline Stophel

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2015, 08:43:17 PM »
And I find most post 1780's American rifles to generally be scrawny little dainty toothpicks....   ;D

German rifles are very ergonomically designed pieces of shooting equipment.  Nothing is there that isn't supposed to be there.   ;)

From what little I have seen so far, a good average pull length for a German gun might be about 13 1/4".  Some longer, often shorter, of course.  Buttplates are generally at least 2" wide, often 2 1/4" or more.  Wrist measurements, well, on some slimmer guns maybe as small as 1 7/16" high and wide, but generally nearer 1 9/16" or even larger (by the way, the Edward Marshall rifle has a wrist that is 1 3/4", which is huge even by German standards, and all the "Christian's Spring" guns are every bit as full-sized as their German forebears. )   Things started shrinking in the 1770's, but never got as scrawny and skimpy as things got in America.

How about this gun.  Granted, it is not typical, but.... this is an original German halfstock smoothbore gun done in the Spanish style (I have actually seen many more guns done in "Spanish style" than I have seen actual Spanish guns done this way!!!)  that I will date broadly to the first quarter of the 18th century (the lock actually looks older).  It may have been a boy's or lady's gun. The gun is right near .50 caliber.  The barrel is about 1" at the breech, tapering rapidly, and is around 3/4" for most of its length, flaring only very slightly at the muzzle.  The barrel is about 41" long.  The wrist is about 1 1/2" high and only 1 3/8" wide.  The buttplate is 2" at its widest, which is the very bottom.  It MAY weigh 6 pounds.  The pull length is a mere 12 3/4".  Handles beautifully, even for me, and I'm enormous.  6'1"+  with a 38" sleeve.  People do not need 14 or 15" pull lengths like they think they do... ;)  Without an "in-person" perspective, one might get the impression that this gun is enormous.  It most definitely is not.







« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 08:53:33 PM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2015, 09:39:25 PM »
Wow Chris! That step is nearly what I would call "pistol" grip! I would bet that the hold for the right hand would be most comfortable. I really like the shark mouth entry for the ramrod without a brass thimble. Very cool seeing new things on old guns!
Joel Hall

Offline hanshi

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2015, 10:13:02 PM »
Jeagers are especially interesting rifles (to me).  I consider them to be second only to the American longrifle in personal appeal.  If my wife would let me live afterwards, I'd jump at the chance to own a nice jeager in a heartbeat. 

It seems that the one universal description of them is heavy butted, chunky, etc.  And most pics of them make them look that way.  So it was with great interest that I've been reading posts by Mike, and some others, explaining that they are generally quite svelte with no extra wood.  And the idea that one doesn't have to settle for an 8 to 9 pound rifle to have one is pleasant news.
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kaintuck

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2015, 01:43:20 PM »
 ;D
I know that the SMR is a "broomstick" with a barrel.....I'm knowing the Germanic/Christian spring rifles have a little more wood around the lock. The Ky rifles will be fun to make for me....as they will be a late ketland lock, and the wrist tapers kinda into the barrel, slanting/dishing more than a lancaster.....

I haven't weighed my Bertha yet, as the forend is still in the square stage. The bottom of the BP and stock tapers fast toward to the stepped wrist, but she's wide, and different......

And remember falls, this is only my 13th build, and 1st CP riffle......so it's a "learning" rifle :D

Ken moors is my hero, along with Allen Martin.......they get it right!

All I have to give adevice on site, is a mumbling Tom kat.......I can't understand his advice, sounds like he's got a mouthful of marbles....... ::)
More pictures soon as I get the PB latch done.......and I will do some measurements......
Thanks again.......
Marc n tomtom

Offline fm tim

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Re: Stepped wrist
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2015, 05:10:45 PM »
Per J.W.Heckert and E Kettenburg   The stepped wrist is a characteristic of early Lehigh Valley firearms