barrel build question

[thecapgunkid]

Just bought a barrel for a Schimmel I want to build from the Pecatonica Folks. I bought their Jaeger lock, stock barrel and triggers as a base.

They had to ship with a straight barrel and I would have preferred a swamped.

I think I will live through the crisis, tho.

Here's the question; Having encountered many many dark looks when I mention swamping a straight barrel, and understanding the bending threat when such is undertaken....what about filing the corners rather than the flats?

Years ago I had a rifle built by a good friend, Doug Anderson, and he did that on a 42 inch barrel. It was not swamped, but the balance  and light weight nature on that piece always amazed me because it seemed so long as the muzzle  to be in a different zip code.

[kaintuck]

Corners fileing....?
I'd get the barrel you want 1st.....inlet it to the stock, call the company that MADE the barrel, see if they will swap out......

IMHO keep the horse in front of the cart......trying to make a barrel into what you desire is a HUGE task.....

Marc n tomtom

[JDK]

....what about filing the corners rather than the flats?

So....are you suggesting taking the barrel from octagon to having 16 sided???  I don't think you will be happy with that in the long run.

What straight barrel did you buy?  Some are light.  A straight 13/16" .45 barrel, for example.

Your BEST option is to try to return the barrel and stock or sell it in the "for sale" section, and reinvest the money in what you really want.

Even buying a swamped barrel and reinletting it in the existing straight barrel stock is even problematic.  If you get a swamped barrel whose minimum cross section fits the inlet it will be heavier than the existing straight barrel and may be too wide in the breech to fit the stock.  If you buy one the same width in the breech you will have to piece in wood in the middle.

Either build what you have the way it is for the experience or return or SELL it.  Someone will buy it.  Even if you take a slight loss you will be further ahead.

Enjoy, J.D.

[Mike Brooks]

I'd send all that stuff back. You don't want a jeager lock on a schimmel. And, if you want a swamped barrel you should have one, building guns is hard enough with out swamping a straight barrel.

[JDK]

Come on Mike, what's wrong with the Jaeger lock on a Schimmel???

An plain, early Swiss/German inspired S.E. Pennsylvania "Barn Gun" with a sliding wood box lid would be fun.

Challenging?  Yes, but FUN!!!  Enjoy, J.D.

[Pete G.]

There is a tremendous backup on the wait for swamped barrels, particularly in some calibers. I assume you are talking about removing the corners that are within the fore end to lighten the front. A lot of old rifles are built with only the top five flats formed, but if you want to lighten the front think about cutting the barrel to about 38". The "barn gun" is basically a modern invention, so you can use whatever parts are available and still be correct.

[thecapgunkid]

Thanks, Folks.

I read through The Art Of Building The Pennsylvania Long Rifle  and learned just enough about the so called "Schimmels" to be willing to get some of my exercise by jumping to conclusions.

Every vendor I spoke with is bound to long delays in getting a swamped barrel, so sending it back is not on the radar.

In this and that "Other" Forum all the comments are pretty helpful.

I just sold a Pedersoli Jager Hunter I gussied up on Gunbroker where it seemed heavy and awkward until I shouldered it.  Then it got real steady.

SO...keeping that in mind, here's how this is gonna go.

I'll shoulder it when it gets here to decide.

I might just pack it up and drive down to Bobby Hoyt (We are likely to move back to PA later in the spring) and have him take it from .58 to .60 because it is a one inch bbl., 31 - 35 inches.

Since I am at the bottom of the pyramid in terms of experience, I am willing to gamble a little if that don't work or he advises against it, so I'll ask him.  He did some work on a previous octagon to round for me and this guy is really good at what he does, so I will rent his eyeballs for a few minutes.

If I get to filing after a couple of Hail Mary's and a St. Joseph The Worker Prayer, then the plan is to work the corners so that the filed width of each corner works up to  1/8 the width of the flat evenly all the way down the barrel. Then I heft it and see how it feels.

If it feels OK then I still have the inletted stock to work with and can bed the barrel if I want to compensate for the two corner gaps in the channel. 

Of course, I am gonna have to ask how they bedded barrels back then because Fiberglass  sorta turns my nose into an allergy factory.

I might even get brassy ( or foolish) enough to swamp the corners a little.  I'll burn that bridge when I cross it.

Before I attempt that, I have to remind me not to take myself too seriously.  Knowing what I  know and don't know about the 18th Century and its crafts, when a real expert looks at the gun and cringes, I can come back with something like..."This is one of those conjectural, work-a-day guns that would have been low priced and used until it did not survive to make it to Dixon's Gun Fair"...

If he is kind enough, I might offer him a discount on one of my pairs of shoes.  If he is mean enough, then I will over charge his wife for a pair of blue kickers with red bows and heels.

In either case, if I ever run into any of you at an event, be sure to remind me that "I told you so" and coffee will be on me....

[tiswell]

Capgunkid,
       If you want a swamped barrel. contact Tip Curtis. I would be very surprised if he doesn't have what you need in stock. His phone number is  615-654-4445. He is in Cross Plains, TN. Also, if you are close to Bobby Hoyt's you are not too far from Ft. Frederick. They have a market fair in like 3 weeks. There is usually a good amount of gun making supplies there as well.
                                                                                                                                          Good Luck, Blessings, Bill

[Mike Brooks]

I don't need to wait to see you at an event.....I TOLD YOU SO.... If you're going to build a gun do it right, don't waste your time on this. There are plenty of swamped barrels out there.
 This filing off the corners thing gives me the creeps....

[smallpatch]

I've got a great little .52 cal swamped Hoyt barrel here if you change your mind.

[Mike Brooks]

I have a swamped .50 that needs the bore recut...Bob Hoyt would do that. I believe it's on old Kelly barrel that has WIDE lands and very narrow grooves. Never could get those barrels to shoot. Contact me if you're interested. I'd go with the .52 offered above.

[JDK]

I find it hard to believe swamped barrels aren't out there.  At our little show in Lewisburg this past February David Keck of Knob Mountain, Greg from Dixon's and Bobby Hoyt all had swamped barrels on their tables.  With such a small sampling of vendors all having barrels in one place I have to believe they are available.  Maybe not the particular caliber, profile or weight one desires, but there were plenty there that were suitable for almost any build.

I'm with Mike, filing the corners off is not the way to go.

I do however disagree with Pete that the Schimmel or "barn gun" is a modern invention.  Now, you don't see them from every "school" of rifle building, but they were produced certain areas, SE Pennsylvania in particular, and I've seen and handled enough from that region to believe they were not uncommon.  Sure, there are many fantasy "barn guns" that have been built in recent years, but that doesn't dismiss the fact that they did exist, at least in one region.

But, here's the problem for a Schimmel, especially for a novice builder, there is nothing to hide your mistakesl.  With no mounts, other than the trigger guard, it becomes ALL about the "architecture".  Without guidance from an experienced Master it is very difficult, if not impossible, to pull off so that one pleases the eye.

Notice I didn't say to pull it off correctly as there were ugly, ungainly guns built back then too.....but who wants to take the time to replicate one of those.....at least on purpose. 

Enjoy, J.D.

[JDK]

..... .58 to .60 because it is a one inch bbl., 31 - 35 inches.

After getting to the office and reading your post for what seems like the third or fourth time, I finally caught this statement of yours.

I honestly think you are going to have no worries.  A 1"x36" barrel in .58 is going to weigh about 5.5-5.75 pounds.  Compare that to Colerain's Edward Marshall profile, in "D" weight with a 1.125" breech and 37" long, it weighs 5 lbs. in .58 caliber.

Granted, a swamped barrel handles differently, but your barrel being shorter I would say the difference is neglegible, so there should be no reason to do any filing or to have Bobby bump the caliber up.

Build what you will and Enjoy, J.D.

[Ky-Flinter]

Here ya go......  Rice has barrels.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=i2gps350jrljfa60f366v96kh0&topic=35306.0

-Ron

[smallpatch]

JDK,
Now compare it to a "C" weight barrel where the breech is about the same dimensionally, and you'll see a significant difference in weight.
Comes in just over 4#, and that's a 38" barrel.
If you cut it back to 36, it would be under 4#.
That's significant.
On a swamped barrel, it's WHERE the weight sits.  More weight at the breech, instead of hanging off the front sight.

[JDK]

You don't have to convince me Dane.  I'm already a fan of swamped barrels.

Just like ladies, it's not how much they weigh.....as you said "it's where the weight is" that makes 'em desirable or not.

I'm just tryin' to make lemonade out of lemons for this guy.  Explainin' all is not lost if he "must" keep that barrel and stock.

All is well.  Enjoy, J.D.

[whitebear]

Send it back and get what you want may cost you return shipping but that shouldn't be that much, sell it and buy what you want, or build it as is.  I tried to round off a pistol barrel 5" long going from full octagon to totally round with a file.  I finally got it maybe, sorta, done after 4 nights of filing.  By then I wished that I had never started.  I can still see and feel high spots but that baby is now inlet into a stock where it will stay.  I'm not saying that you are no better workman than I am but I fear that you will end up with something half done, that can't be returned and would be very hard to resell.