Author Topic: Handsome filework  (Read 8788 times)

westbj2

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Handsome filework
« on: April 11, 2015, 09:23:20 PM »
The pictures below are of a Vienna marked C.1850-60 Schutzen rifle now in the shop.  I thought the workmanship deserved sharing with those of you who enjoy this kind of thing. 
Aside from the nice filework on the lock, notice that the sear and tumbler are both reinforced in the area that the fly functions in.  Often you see the corner of the sear which contacts the fly worn, this apparently an attempt to remedy that.  Also the link is secured to the tumbler with a screw unlike British work which is a fitted claw arrangement.
The set triggers are simply spectularly done, I think the best I've seen.  It is hard to see in the photos how small many of the parts actually are.  The mechanism consists of 5 levers and pins along with 4 springs.  The small pins toward the front of the trigger are .018" in diameter.
The trigger guard apparently is designed to "warm-up" to the actual depressing of the trigger.  When you put your finger into the guard, just the meat of your finger touches the trigger.  Interesting idea.
Jim
















Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Handsome filework
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2015, 09:40:48 PM »
Thanks for sharing that Jim. Its fun to see the quality of workmanship that was done when techno wasnt used. I think there are still some who do that quality of work and some spend some of their time here on this site.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Handsome filework
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2015, 10:02:34 PM »
Quote
The set triggers are simply spectularly done, I think the best I've seen.  It is hard to see in the photos how small many of the parts actually are.  The mechanism consists of 5 levers and pins along with 4 springs.  The small pins toward the front of the trigger are .018" in diameter.
Yep, typical German/Austrian engineering. Never use 4 parts when 9 will work better.
Dennis of German & Scot ancestry but my Scot thriftiness overrides the German complexity ;D
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Handsome filework
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2015, 10:09:21 PM »
The guard provides a finger stop for those inclined to yank their triggers.  ;D

Very interesting piece. Thanks for posting this. The engraving looks to be a combination of engraving with stamped circles.
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Offline PPatch

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Re: Handsome filework
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2015, 11:52:11 PM »
Quote
Yep, typical German/Austrian engineering. Never use 4 parts when 9 will work better.
Dennis of German & Scot ancestry but my Scot thriftiness overrides the German complexity ;D

How true Dennis, I learned that working on my VW Jetta's, yet once you got into it and thought about it a bit you could see the logic in everything.

That lock and set triggers are a marvel however. Would love to dry fire that setup.

dave
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Handsome filework
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2015, 02:18:15 AM »
I have made a number of locks for a German customer with the fancy Kreuzstudel (bridle).
They are not hard to make bust take a lot of time.I still have a nearly finshed bridle similar
to this one.In today's world,the trigger would far exceed the cost of the lock.I was told that
these triggers were mostly made by watch makers in the French speaking section of Switzerland.
Thanks for showing this set of fine parts.

Bob Roller

Offline Michigan Flinter

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Re: Handsome filework
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2015, 03:45:03 AM »
  Would love to see the rest of the gun .

Offline LRB

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Re: Handsome filework
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2015, 01:08:20 PM »
Quote
The set triggers are simply spectularly done, I think the best I've seen.  It is hard to see in the photos how small many of the parts actually are.  The mechanism consists of 5 levers and pins along with 4 springs.  The small pins toward the front of the trigger are .018" in diameter.
Yep, typical German/Austrian engineering. Never use 4 parts when 9 will work better.
Dennis of German & Scot ancestry but my Scot thriftiness overrides the German complexity ;D
"Over engineered is a German attitude, and makes rockets fly." A quote from Roman Landes, a respected German engineer and metallurgist.

Offline Swampwalker

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Re: Handsome filework
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2015, 05:20:19 PM »
Love the engraving style on the lock.
The lock internals are straightforward enough, but while I'm impressed with the watch-like works of the trigger, I have to admit that I don't understand how it works; what qualities and advantages do all those additional levers and springs provide?  It would be great to see it in set mode as well.
Thanks for sharing this very interesting piece.

Offline Robby

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Re: Handsome filework
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2015, 04:23:58 PM »
On page 78 of the "Steinschloss- Jagerbuchsen" book there is another very complex set trigger assembly illustrated. Maybe just a tad less complex than this one but it is an illustration, so it is easier to understand, somewhat. I have already spent way to much time staring at it and trying to understand how such complexity is more efficient than a standard double set trigger. I love the engineering and craftsmanship, just don't understand the need. I wonder if the creator was an antecedent of the twentieth century's Rube Goldberg.
Robby
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Handsome filework
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2015, 05:20:51 PM »
the multiple levers reduce the force required to trip the front trigger. It indeed becomes a hair trigger. But it allows a much higher factor of safety, reliability and sensitivity over a double set that is set on the hairy edge of tripping.
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Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Handsome filework
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2015, 05:43:52 PM »
The TG is the finger rest and when fired just a little change, a flex in the finger tip, fires the trigger. Some have a steel bar off the trigger plate with a wire inset as the front trigger. The bar is the finger rest the wire is touched to fire the trigger. These complex multi-lever triggers were designed for specific and valid reasons for offhand shooting on a range. 
Great photos, thanks a bunch.


Dan
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Handsome filework
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2015, 11:36:14 PM »
On page 78 of the "Steinschloss- Jagerbuchsen" book there is another very complex set trigger assembly illustrated. Maybe just a tad less complex than this one but it is an illustration, so it is easier to understand, somewhat. I have already spent way to much time staring at it and trying to understand how such complexity is more efficient than a standard double set trigger. I love the engineering and craftsmanship, just don't understand the need. I wonder if the creator was an antecedent of the twentieth century's Rube Goldberg.
Robby

No,not Rube Goldberg but probably a watch or clock maker in central Europe.

Bob Roller

Steve-In

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Re: Handsome filework
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2015, 12:35:37 AM »
I would love to see that trigger in super slow motion.  Both when set and tripped to get some idea on how it works. 
I was told that set triggers originated on crossbows, I do not know if that is true or not. 
Thanks for sharing.

Offline Robby

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Re: Handsome filework
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2015, 01:05:53 AM »
Like I said, I have a real appreciation for the design, engineering and craftsmanship the is required to make such a mechanism. It must be something you have to experience in hand to understand how they differ from a standard set trigger which can be tuned and set to reliably activate with anything from a whisper to a few pounds.
Robby
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Offline Ryan McNabb

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Re: Handsome filework
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2015, 08:24:29 PM »
Wow.  Trying to wrap my mind around those triggers.  Gorgeous, but "Rube Goldberg" comes to mind.

Ric27

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Re: Handsome filework
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2015, 02:44:43 AM »
Really fine work. highly evolved machinery.  I don't get the Goldberg analogy. No connection there for me. These guys were not joking around in any way.

westbj2

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Re: Handsome filework
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2015, 05:18:08 PM »
In hindsight, I should have taken pictures of the basic sequence of engagement and geometry involved in how these triggers work.  For those interested, I will try to describe the function.
If you look just above the boss where the front trigger is pivoted, you will see a horizontal limb with a fine notch filed in the end and a radius lump just above the notch.  The notch engages a mating cut in the trigger.  The raduis lump engages the long arched piece just forward and above.  This piece with the arch is actually "L" shaped and pivoted at the front pivot boss.  Notice near the  end of the vertical section there is a step cut into the right side.  This step acts as an engagement position for the long bar which is pivoted off the large round boss atop a triangular base near the center of the assembly.
Basically up to this point, we have a very fine release which is followed by a coarser realease of what may be called a transfer bar. 
The rear of this bar, just to the right of the center pivot boss assumes a pointed raduis shape near its end.  Look closely at the 1:00 o'clock position just above the circular section of the pivot boss.  You can just see the end of the bar here, the lower part of this comes around to complete the radius. (partly hidden behind the circular pivot boss).
This radius matches the male radius on the bottom of the rear striking trigger.  When in the engaged position, the striking trigger is restrained by the transfer bar lever.
In all, an interesting example of combining mechanical advantage principles, geometry and physics.  The designer was able to control the release of a huge mainspring (thus speed) with a release that is almost imperceptable.

Offline Robby

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Re: Handsome filework
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2015, 07:14:02 PM »
Thank you westbj2, it makes more sense to me now.
Robby
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Offline shortbarrel

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Re: Handsome filework
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2015, 12:47:55 AM »
I'll go with Dennis, he said it all.