Author Topic: Wrought iron barrels question  (Read 6626 times)

kaintuck

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Wrought iron barrels question
« on: May 23, 2015, 03:51:55 PM »
I am wondering, on original wrought iron barrels, did the "grain" run parallel with the barrel?
And did the grain show somewhat thru the final finish?

Those of you lucky enough to have a original, please tell me, it would be cool to have a few striated lines in a build then? ???

Marc n tomtom

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Wrought iron barrels question
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2015, 03:54:07 PM »
I've not seen grain on original barrels.  Generally the patina will cover everything., but on a polished original Bess I can't see any grain.  When a relic is dug you can see the grain in the rusted remains.
Andover, Vermont

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Wrought iron barrels question
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2015, 04:42:04 PM »
The grain would definitely run parallel with the length. Look at some of the videos of welding gun barrels to see the process. Ian had one of his rifles at our meeting at the fort this year and the first thing I noticed was the wrought iron barrel. It wasn't forge welded though, it was drilled from old wrought solid stock. The grain was visible in it.
 I always was amazed at the process of forge welding gun barrels. It looks impossible till you try it. The grain is more visible in some wrought iron than others. The lower grade stuff is more grainy. The rifle I am working on has wrought buttplate and triggergaurd and will have wrought patchbox. This was all forged from some low grade stuff off an old plow, braces and such. They will definitely show some grain when done.
I buy old wrought junk when I find it. I got a couple wagon tires the other day and I just picked up a tub full of old wagon hub rings. I like to look around for old gas and oil well junk. A lot of it is wrought iron.
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Wrought iron barrels question
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2015, 08:11:11 PM »
The grain does run lengthwise in a barrel.   The barrel has the greatest strength that way.   However,  when forging wrought iron,  it is usual to make your bend across the grain as opposed to with it. When I say "across", I mean perpendicular to the grain.  If you made the bend along, or parallel to,  the grain,  it tends to crack along the grain.   That is why your make sure the grain is running through the spur and bottom jaw when you forge a cock.   Otherwise,  the lower jaw would tend to snap off along the grain lines.   If you need to forge a bend along the grain as in a barrel,  you need to make sure you keep the metal hot, as in bright orange or yellow, while you are working it.   When wrought iron goes to plain red,  it needs to go back in the fire.   For hammering wrought iron into a die,  it needs to come out of the fire white hot, almost at welding temp, so that it flows without creating cracks along the grain.    There are similar problem working tool steel, but since you didn't ask about that,  I won't go into it.

As to being able to see the grain,  I have never noticed it in antique barrels, and you don't normally see it in my wrought iron mounts or lock parts.   You would have to etch the metal to see that unless it was really crude stuff.   For barrels, you use the finest grain iron you can get.   I have some very nice third run stuff I am saving for barrels.   In the old days, in England,  they preferred to use recycled nails for barrels and locks.   That way,  you can be sure the iron had been worked a lot before it was worked into barrels or lock parts.   

Did you know that iron is the most recycled metal.   The same iron has been used over and over again for centuries.   To some extent, you can say the same for cooper, silver, and gold.   Just an interesting thought.
   
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 08:20:28 PM by Mark Elliott »

kaintuck

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Re: Wrought iron barrels question
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2015, 09:05:52 PM »
 ;D
Good answers fellows, so, my thought.....when a draw filed barrel has a few scratches, lengthwise, it might be cool just to leave them, rust finish, pit etc to give a 1740's effect???Seems neat to me, just leaving alone.
I plan to age the CS rifle, rounded worn corners etc....so I might just leave the barrel with small amount of these lines.

If it looks bad, I can always draw file to totally smooth and re-rust. :)

Just having fun with this one.....

Marc n tomtom

Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: Wrought iron barrels question
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2015, 09:43:29 PM »
Guys,

Here are some close up photos of a repurposed wrought iron barrel, originally a heavy rifle barrel, now three nice pistol barrels.  This is what original barrel quality W.I. looks like under magnification.  When browned or blued these slag streaks are nearly invisible.  The easiest and cheapest way to forge a barrel is with the grain parallel to the axis of the bore, a straight weld seam.  Better quality barrels used a spiral weld seam which gives the grain running a good bit crosswise to the bore.

Jim



« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 07:00:00 AM by James Wilson Everett »

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Wrought iron barrels question
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2015, 09:45:34 PM »
I own four guns with wrought iron barrels, three rifles, and a pocket pistol. The only one that shows any inclusions in the wrought iron is the pocket pistol. I assume the rifle barrels were made from much better material than the little pocket pistol. One of the rifles, is a .45 cal. smooth rifle that when disassembled divulged the fact that it was originally sold with a bright barrel. The barrel under the forearm is bright and nicely finished. I suspect this was more common than we would suspect today. There are no visible inclusions in the barrel where there is no rust, leading me to believe it is high quality iron.

            Hungry Horse

kaintuck

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Re: Wrought iron barrels question
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2015, 10:35:13 PM »
 :-\
Looks like I will draw file a little more...from those photos, to many lines to come out like a wrought iron barrel....
Thank you

Marc n tomtom

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Wrought iron barrels question
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2015, 04:57:20 AM »
I own four guns with wrought iron barrels, three rifles, and a pocket pistol. The only one that shows any inclusions in the wrought iron is the pocket pistol. I assume the rifle barrels were made from much better material than the little pocket pistol. One of the rifles, is a .45 cal. smooth rifle that when disassembled divulged the fact that it was originally sold with a bright barrel. The barrel under the forearm is bright and nicely finished. I suspect this was more common than we would suspect today. There are no visible inclusions in the barrel where there is no rust, leading me to believe it is high quality iron.

            Hungry Horse

The "quality" of the wrought used in the original barrels varied widely.

To start this off.
In one of John Baird's books on the Hawken Rifle he shows one stamped, H REEDS Rdg PA.  He misread the stamp.  That was Henry Deeds who bored barrels in a converted grist mill in what is now Exeter Twp near Reading, PA.  Close to the Daniel Boone Homestead state park.  This Henry Deeds had married into a family of well known barrel makers operating along a creek in what is now Mohnton, PA outside of Reading.  The Pannabecker family who owned and operated at least two barrel mills along that creek.  Barrels were then sent to the Henry Deeds boring mill.  From there the dozen that ended up in the Hawken shop had gone by canal out of Reading,  Eventually onto the Ohio River and then down to St. Louis.

So why did the Hawken brothers purchase at least one dozen barrels made in Berks County PA?  There was an iron mine and forge only 75 miles from St. Louis.  Why not iron from that area?

When you look at the iron ore used at that time in Berks, Lebanon and Lancaster counties you see them working with magnatite iron ore which is about 65% iron and some manganese.  Furnaces in other areas such as Bedford County used hematite iron ore which was around 30 to 35% iron.  Strip iron produced from hematite ore pig iron had a good bit more slag included compared to that produced from the higher iron content magnatite ore.

This came up in a scandal at Harper's Ferry.  They had used barrels produced in Lancaster, Lebanon and Berks counties.  Then a new manager took over and found it could buy barrels cheaper from Bedford County iron forges.  But when they switched to the Bedford forge barrels the proof test failure test percentage jumped up.  It proved to be a false saving and cost the works more money.


So where the ore came from was a factor.  How well the pig iron was hammered in the bloomery forge played a part.

Then how the barrel was hammer forged from the strip stock played a part.  The German barrel makers around here would set up trip hammer forges.  No hand hammering.  They would work a number of skelps in the forge at the same time.  Hammering one while the others reheated.  The trip hammer gave uniform blows every time.  With hand hammering the force applied by the hammer could be effected by how tired the guy with the hammer was.  A trip hammer forge could produce a fair number of finished barrels in one shift.

So there were a number of factors involved in the "quality" of the finished barrels.

Near Reading is the Hopewell Furnace National Park.  A rebuilt iron furnace that operated during Colonial times into the late 1800s.  Their gift shop has/had a book stand that was awesome.  Books on Colonial iron furnaces, basic technology and books on old English iron and steel manufacturing technology.

Mad Monk

Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: Wrought iron barrels question
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2015, 02:25:32 PM »
Guys,

Here is another photo of a wrought iron barrel for a pistol.  I hope that you can see somewhat of a difference between the barrel iron and the breech plug iron.  The barrel iron is more highly refined, resulting in much finer slag streaks.  The breech plug iron is from a less refined iron, resulting in more visible slag streaks.  This is OK as the barrel stress on firing is cross grain to the iron, that is the stress on the iron is oriented in the direction where the iron is weaker (think of wood grain).  The breech plug stress on firing is parallel to the grain, that is the stress on the iron is oriented in the direction where the iron is stronger.



Both highly refined and less refined wrought iron has the same percentage of slag to iron, about 3% - 4%.  In more highly refined wrought iron the slag streaks are more numerous and finer than they are in less refined wrought iron.  In very highly refined wrought iron, the slag streaks are so very fine that they are difficult to see without an acid etch of the iron to make the grain visible.

Here is a magnified photo of steel grain structure.

[

Here is a magnified photo of wrought iron grain structure.



Jim
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 06:57:48 AM by James Wilson Everett »

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Wrought iron barrels question
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2015, 07:22:54 PM »
Very interesting stuff guys, Thanks for sharing.
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Wrought iron barrels question
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2015, 07:36:17 AM »
I was making a front sight for an  :o. Grab a piece of rod I had got from a friends  junk pile, turned it to a diameter with the right radius (the sight fits in a shallow woodruff key cut). Get it properly shaped and thinned where needed and silver soldered in. In starting to file it down the final shape a significant portion BROKE OFF at a flaw or inclusion line. Turned out it was an old chunk of iron but it turned pretty nice so it might have been low quality steel.  ???  Fortunately I still had enough left got finish the sight. So when people talk about shooting old barrels I wonder... I have done it in the past. But the more I learn and the older I get the more cautious I get. This is why proof firing barrels is a good idea. It finds the gross flaws.

Dan
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