Pouches and the materials used.

[G. Elsenbeck]

Hello all.  This question is more directed to all you experienced bag makers or collectors of such.  I'll admit I've not seen alot of original bags but those I've seen had strapping sewn directly to the bag.  Lately it seems alot of bags made have brass or iron rings connecting the straps to the bag.  Was this a common practice in the 18th century or was it something developed in the 19th century?  What about the use of rivets?  I can't imagine stapping sewn directly to the bag, if done properly, would fail the user.  It's not like we're carrying cannon balls around in the bag.  Perhaps the practice of using rings began with the english sporting crowd?  Any thoughts out there?
Gary

[T.C.Albert]

On American type hunting pouches I do not believe rings were common at all...TCA

[G. Elsenbeck]

T.C. thanks for the input and by the way, your book is a big help in my renewed interest in bag making.  Thanks.
Gary

[T.C.Albert]

Thanks for the kind words Gary...
I have only seen one or two originals with rings...and only one that I can be possitive was initially constructed that way...and the rings on that one were "japaned"...leading me to guess that it was made in the second half of the 19th century...Im sure there are many more and various examples
out there I've not seen, but so far rings do seem pretty rare.
TCA 

[Frank Barker]

Well, I might as well chime in here also. I believe you guy's are pretty well correct in all of your observations. I kinda took a survey by going through Mr Madison Grant's book and from the pouches he has photographed, I agree with you both. The pouches that have the straps secured with some type of round or D type ring were made around the 1850's. Some were sewn on a machine, which pretty well sets the cutoff date of it's manufacture to be mid 19th century.
He does address the use of rivets as being made mostly of lead and not copper. A great number of the pouches have a buckle adjustment, some even having two buckles. When I make a rifle pouch, I set it up for the buckle to be on the front strap, whether it be right or left hand carry.  A customer of mine from Kentucky always wants his set up like I would normally make a left hand carry bag, but he carries it on the right hand side. This puts the buckle on the back strap. He further pointed out that a majority of Mr Grant's pouches, that had horns attached, were set up in this manner. I looked in the book and he was right.
Gary, I think you are right about the O and D rings being favored by the British sporting crowd. As far as lining a pouch, I really have never seen any old original with a lining. I have made two that were lined at the request of a customer.
I'm sure there are some acceptions to what we have pointed out and someone will come up with a lined pouch with D rings on the strap, that came from Virginia, dated 1754.
Frank

[T.C.Albert]

just a thought but from what I have seen, the first thing to go on an old pouch is often the strap, and they are then usually seperated in time leaving only the pouch itself to be collected as the strap has broken into pieces ...and restorations, especially contemporary ones,  often use whats available and "looks" right to recreate straps and horn attachments...so too much reliance on book photographs of individual bags, especially for straps can be misleading,since in a photo its hard to tell what has been fixed...(although Grant does have a key to identify restorations in his book, it doesnt really indicate how extensive etc... )

TCA

[Swampman]

IMO and that of others Grant was sold a lot of "restorations."