cartridge trap in butt of Tlingit musket ?

[ddoyle]

I know this musket is post ALRs time frame and continent of origin but I am hoping the local North American  work done on it will make it permissible.

In my endless quest to complicate the simple I have found this 'extra step' that I might need to incorporate into some builds and am looking for insight about , of what I assume to be,  paper cartridge traps, in NWTGs.  Or maybe it is receptacle for a worm/screw?
Or is it shallow and used for grease/oil?

I am  guessing that it is a cartridge trap as I have seen a couple ornate paper cartridge boxes of Haida/Tlingit origin and this musket is I assume from the west coast as well ( though the merganser is almost identical to one on a micmac horn)

Any guesses, thoughts, other examples (especially) come to mind? Reason why it is set so deep instead of beginning closer to the butt plate?

[Hungry Horse]

I don't recall ever hearing of natives using paper cartridges. I would suspect it is used to hold a cleaning worm.

  Hungry Horse

[Robert Wolfe]

No idea on the butt trap but it is a wonderful gun. Can you tell us more about it?

[Swampwalker]

Very interesting and attractive gun.  The trap may be designed to hold lead balls.  Would love to see some additional pictures if you have them, esp. a closeup of the trap. 

[4ster]

Very interesting and attractive gun.  The trap may be designed to hold lead balls.  Would love to see some additional pictures if you have them, esp. a closeup of the trap. 

The form of the trap would function perfectly as a "ball magazine".  With the shooters left palm against the butt, he would thumb the catch and one ball would roll out and the catch would be thumbed closed.  If this is how it was used, it seems like such a obviously useful feature, I am surprised that it is not found on classic ALRs.  It probably is because of the cultural context and the habits developed from shooting conditions on the west coast.

[Kermit]

Can you share with us what led to the conclusion that this is Tlingit work and not from another N. Pacific coastal culture? I've seen a few 19th century trade guns decorated with carving and inlays, but never an addition like this one.

[Blacktail]

I know a native carver who is an expert on these matters. If you'd like, shoot me a PM and I'll try and get you in touch with him.

[ddoyle]

Sorry for the delay, chasing munchkins around.......

OK as embarrassing as it sounds I am having trouble figuring where the pics of the gun came from. I know I was researching coastal weavings using that distinct blue color, black and white with the idea of painting a piece of plain maple...... I'll figure it out and post.

I do remember that the source (auction house IIRC) attributed it to either Haida or Tlingit.

The use of Paper Cartridges I got from this piece that is posted on xxx.Speaking Cedar.xxx


http://www.speakingcedar.com/uploads/1/6/5/0/16503354/3713544.jpg?619

Anyone interested in Tlingit arms would do well to follow this up:

Topic of Talk

Sitka National Historical Park will host a program by Dr. David Silverman, a history professor from George Washington University who specializes in American Indian and Colonial American history, 7 p.m. Thursday, Aug. 6, at the visitor center theater.

Silverman will present “The Sitka Tlingit and the Pacific Northwest Gun Frontier.”

“Between the 1780s and early 1800s, Native people along the Pacific Northwest coast went from being some of the most isolated populations in the world to hosting merchant ships from a half dozen nations and participating in a global commerce linking Europe, the Americas, Polynesia and China,’’ Silverman said. ‘‘Though often characterized as the fur trade, this exchange was also very much an arms trade in which Indians acquired smoothbore, flintlock muskets, ammunition, and sometimes even artillery guns. In the Pacific Northwest, as in other times and places in North America, temporarily cornering the weapons market enabled some Native groups to transform themselves into regional powers who dominated not just their indigenous neighbors, but Europeans as well.

‘‘The Sitka Tlingit were one of those peoples,’’ he said. ‘‘This talk will explore the rise of the Sitka Tlingit’s armament and its political ramifications, including the famous 1802 and 1804 battles with the Russians.”

Here are the additional pics I have:








Unfortunately no closeups of the trap. But I can add this, after looking at the photo for the 100th time, I am pretty sure that immediately above the trap is a 'push button' possibly to release the lid? Seems a complication. Or maybe I am see a vent pic or 'screw driver' stuck in there?

On the carved examples of Coastal guns I have seen this is the first one that I have seen both sides of. I wonder if the mirror image on each side of the butt is normal?

[Acer Saccharum]

One of the coolest guns I've seen in a long time! Wow, I like that!

[ddoyle]

I agree, here is another one that lost abit of it's cool along with it's barrel length (and maybe it's original stock i.e light wood is oddly stained). Not my picture but I have visited it a few times at the Museum of Anthropology. Arranged to get it out of the case in oct. Looking forward to that.  From the limited view in it's display it appears there might be two bolts in the tang, one from the front of the trigger gaurd and one traveling down into it's trigger plate?  Comparing the two guns it is easy to see what a difference in appeal the first one's Guard and trigger make. I am new to it but the subtle differences in these 'simple' guns seems to be a great way to begin understanding the aesthetics of full stock muzzleloading arms.

[Stophel]

I found it here:

http://www.bidsquare.com/l/332/northwest-indian-trade-gun-barnett-dated-1878-decorative-carving-butt-stock