Author Topic: Question before I take a file to the muzzle  (Read 8880 times)

Offline conquerordie

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Question before I take a file to the muzzle
« on: August 18, 2015, 03:46:42 PM »
In an old post it was discussed filing the lands down to make a traditional cone. I have a jeager barrel that is shooting great but is unconed. With my tight patch/ball combo I literally have to hammer start the load. Then it loads easily. So I was thinking a traditional coning of the lands only. I scribe a circle on the muzzle and then file from the very tip of the land to that ring? I don't actually remove anything from the land itself correct? I haven't decided to do this yet, but I'd like to have as much info before I do. Thanks,
Greg

Offline EC121

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Re: Question before I take a file to the muzzle
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2015, 04:01:09 PM »
I just rolled the ends of the lands on a couple of my rifles.  Take an oval needle file and just roll the end of the land to break the sharp corner where the crown stops.  It doesn't take much just a few strokes.  You can do the grooves the same way with the edge of the oval file.  It isn't exactly a cone but it helps.  After that you can do the thumb polishing on the muzzle.  It also helps.  Neither way removes a lot of metal so you can always move on to the coning  if they don't get what you want.   You might also use a slightly smaller patch/ ball combo.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 04:05:04 PM by EC121 »
Brice Stultz

Offline Daryl

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Re: Question before I take a file to the muzzle
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2015, 04:29:33 PM »












Easy loading, no hammering. One whack with the palm on the starter's knob and down it goes.  In the video - this was the end of the day after firing at least 50, maybe 55 shots - no wiping for the entire day on the trail. Easy loading and with this .45 cal. rifle, 1/2" accuracy at 50 yards from a rest.
Daryl

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Offline conquerordie

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Re: Question before I take a file to the muzzle
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2015, 05:29:24 PM »
Ok for thumb polishing what grit paper? Daryl was that cone there or did you thumb polish that? I don't mind a little tight, just want to remove the hammer from the equation. Rifle is shooting great, so don't want to change that! Thanks again

Offline SCLoyalist

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Re: Question before I take a file to the muzzle
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2015, 05:55:56 PM »
Back in 2007, Muzzleloader Magazine ran a series of 3 articles (March/Apr, May/Jun, Jul/Aug) by Fred Stutzenberger and Brian Turpin on the effects of coning on accuracy.   They did 150+ hours of range testing on bench rested barrels that they had been pretty meticulous in altering.   Group size and point of impact were, in general, affected.   In general, if you alter the muzzle, loading will be easier, but you shouldn't be surprised if you have to go through the drill of working up a load (powder charge, patch material , lube combination and sight settings) to get the gun shooting like it was before.

Offline conquerordie

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Re: Question before I take a file to the muzzle
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2015, 07:08:00 PM »
Yes that is why I hesitate to alter the muzzle with a full cone. Deer season is getting closer and I don't want to start the process over. I might just keep shooting the way it is until the season is over and then take the plunge. If easing the lands would help some and not change accuracy too much, great. If filing the lands doesn't actually alter the lands just relieves the metal on the crown to allow the patching to fold and compress then I'd be happy. I'm zeroing my jeager with a 21.25 inch barrel. It's a .62 cal with 1/56" rifling at .016 deep. So far with 100 grains a .610 ball and some matress ticking patches is turning out great accuracy out to 50 yards. I'm still regulating the leaf for 100 yards. Its tight but the patches are intact with no scorching marks. 80 grain and 90 grains had larger groups. The 100 grains tightened up nicely. Anymore powder out of such a short barrel is not going to get me anywhere in guessing. Keep the ideas coming

Offline hanshi

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Re: Question before I take a file to the muzzle
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2015, 09:05:50 PM »
I've used the "thumb in the muzzle" as shown by Daryl on a few guns and intend to eventually get them all.  No metal seems to actually be removed and it's very easy to do.  However I've had a bit of difficulty with small calibers such as the .32.  I have small hands but that's a tiny place to try and insert a thumb.

Here's two shots of the first barrel I did this to; I no longer have this barrel but a custom builder used it to build a very nice rifle.  The crown is actually more rounded than the pic shows with the lands being a gradual slope.


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Offline conquerordie

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Re: Question before I take a file to the muzzle
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2015, 10:21:53 PM »
Your guys must have perfectly symetrical thumbs!  ;D thumb cones look great. Very tempted!

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Question before I take a file to the muzzle
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2015, 10:36:40 PM »
I take a round headed, brass bolt like the one that holds the bowl on a toilet.  Glue some emory paper to it and spin it with your electric drill.  Once it's where you want it, take some fine sandpaper and break the edges.

Brownells sells a brass ball for doing the same thing, to be used with valve grinding compound.  It's really not a cone, but rather a muzzle protector.
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Offline Scota4570

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Re: Question before I take a file to the muzzle
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2015, 10:55:30 PM »
You guys crowning muzzles with files and sandpaper have better luck than I.  I have done it too, I have also made a rifle shoot way off in right field.  Getting it right is hit or miss. 

These days I do all my crowning  in my lathe.  I realize not everyone has a decent lathe.  Seek one out!  Once you get one you will wonder how you did any work without.   Mine is a WW2 vintage Navy Department Southbend 10".  It is not fancy, new or CNC anything.  Just and old lathe that runs good.  You can own one similar for a grand or less.  Many modern machinists do not appreciate old iron.  Trade schools are scrapping fine old machines.  For our purposed a good old machine is perfect.   Once you have a lathe the gunsmithing tasks you can accomplish, and do right, are plentiful. 


Offline EC121

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Re: Question before I take a file to the muzzle
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2015, 11:34:02 PM »
We aren't really crowning as much as polishing and barely rounding the  muzzle edge of the crown.  The round end of a screwdriver handle also works.  My rifle still loaded hard but I don't need the hammer any more.  A firm whack on the short starter does it.  Since I am mostly out in the back yard just making smoke, I went down a ball size and up a bit in patch thickness to keep from pounding the starter so hard.
Brice Stultz

Offline conquerordie

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Re: Question before I take a file to the muzzle
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2015, 02:09:45 AM »
I like the screwdriver handle idea. Smart rap on the short starter without a hammer and I'm happy. I've put a few .600 ball with the same patch and it is easier. Didn't shoot off the bench or anything, just wanted to see off it was easier. The tight combo seems to be working so I'd like to stick with it, but the small ball certainly started much easier. Right now I'd rather have to accuracy than ease of loading. With everyone's help here I'll have both eventually.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Question before I take a file to the muzzle
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2015, 07:12:16 PM »
You have to keep turning the barrel as you thumb polish the crown - about every 15 seconds or so, I turn the barrel 90 degrees. Twisting your wrist pushing straight in with the tip of our thumb is the only method needed, but a lathe simplifies this as well- running forward and reversing it from time to time.

Usually, there is about a 45 degree angle cut with a tool by the barrel mfg'r. when you receive the barrel.  Those sharp edges are merely rounded with the thumb or on a lathe, or bench held using a tool in the hand drill.  This form of crowning does not seem to hurt accuracy, but allows much tighter combinations (without difficult loading - no hammers, no mallets, no steel rods needed), which improves accuracy.

A tapered tool like a stone grinding cone will hold the paper well. I usually use 320 grit. I have finished off with finer crocus cloth but it is not necessary, especially if using power.

I coned a barrel (1" deep cone) once for testing and could not find a load that would shoot well in it.  I will never cone another.  I had to cut off the coned portion and re-crown to the radiused crown you see above in my pictures. These, what I call radiused crowns, are only about 1/8" deep from the top surface to the full land height.  This short radii is much closer to the radii that is used by the bullet swaging die companies (Corbin) for their dies. I also found a long tapered cone creates more drag with really snug combinations and more force is needed to thus swage the patch and ball into a long cone, than into the short radii we use.
Daryl

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Offline One Eye

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Re: Question before I take a file to the muzzle
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2015, 07:23:07 PM »
Daryl,
great post, you have saved me a lot time on the crown of my Selb Hawken.
The crown is exactly as you described and it has been a bear to load without cutting the patch.
Thanks,
You have to keep turning the barrel as you thumb polish the crown - about every 15 seconds or so, I turn the barrel 90 degrees. Twisting your wrist pushing straight in with the tip of our thumb is the only method needed, but a lathe simplifies this as well- running forward and reversing it from time to time.

Usually, there is about a 45 degree angle cut with a tool by the barrel mfg'r. when you receive the barrel.  Those sharp edges are merely rounded with the thumb or on a lathe, or bench held using a tool in the hand drill.  This form of crowning does not seem to hurt accuracy, but allows much tighter combinations (without difficult loading - no hammers, no mallets, no steel rods needed), which improves accuracy.

A tapered tool like a stone grinding cone will hold the paper well. I usually use 320 grit. I have finished off with finer crocus cloth but it is not necessary, especially if using power.

I coned a barrel (1" deep cone) once for testing and could not find a load that would shoot well in it.  I will never cone another.  I had to cut off the coned portion and re-crown to the radiused crown you see above in my pictures. These, what I call radiused crowns, are only about 1/8" deep from the top surface to the full land height.  This short radii is much closer to the radii that is used by the bullet swaging die companies (Corbin) for their dies. I also found a long tapered cone creates more drag with really snug combinations and more force is needed to thus swage the patch and ball into a long cone, than into the short radii we use.
One Eye
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Offline conquerordie

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Re: Question before I take a file to the muzzle
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2015, 12:01:51 AM »
I did the rounded screwdriver idea with some set/Fri paper. It relieved the lands a litle, but didn't tough the groves. I assume this is correct?

Offline Daryl

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Re: Question before I take a file to the muzzle
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2015, 05:23:13 AM »
On every one of my crowns, I have gone past the bottom of the grooves - the ball and patch dimensions I use are larger than the groove diameter by up to .010" per side.  An example of this is my .14 bore rifle, which uses a .030" patch and a .684" ball. The rifling in this gun is .012" deep. 
Thus, the groove diameter of the barrel is .690(bore) + .012" + .012" = .714" .
The patch I use with pure lead balls in this rifle, are .030" (av. reading of 3 different sets of dial calipers) - THUS:
Ball of .684" + .030" + .030" = .744".

.744"  -  .714" = .030" - divide that by 2 = compression of the ball and patch per side (actually in each and every groove) = .015" compression.  I load that rifle on the range with it's original hickory rod, made in 1986, along with the rifle. Granted it is 7/16" in diameter a the top end, tapered to 3/8" where it enters the stock.

The compression of that load on the top of every land, is .744" - .690" = .054" divided by 2 = .027" compression on each and every land.

A single blow of the starter on the patched ball, sets it into the rifling. At that point- merely 1/4" or so below the muzzle of the barrel, the ball and patch are already groove diameter. With a decent lube, it is easily loaded from there.  Watch the video again if you doubt this.  That .450 bored rifle  is using a .445" ball and .0225" patch.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Daryl

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Re: Question before I take a file to the muzzle
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2015, 05:31:21 PM »
Here is the 14 bore's muzzle.

Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline conquerordie

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Re: Question before I take a file to the muzzle
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2015, 08:35:56 PM »
I will deepen it tonight until it just touch the  bottom of the grooves. Thank you for the correction. 

Greg

Offline Daryl

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Re: Question before I take a file to the muzzle
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2015, 08:17:16 PM »
Greg - sounds good, but look closely at the bottom of the 14 bore rifle's grooves. The metal is radiused outwards to a slightly larger diameter.  This aides in starting a tight combination, without cutting the patch.  The distance is not great or over a long surface area, but it is there, non-the-less.

This very rifle has shot witnessed groups approaching 1 MOA at 200yards and it is a round ball gun shot with open sights. My "BEST" feeling group was with Taylor present, 3 1/2" tall X 1 1/2" wide for 6 shots.  We have shot tighter groups of 2 1/2" centre to centre, at 200yards off bags with our large bore round ball guns, however and both of these rifles are crowned as noted above.

The little dark spots in the middle of the grooves are rod wear, I suspect, from shooting this rifle (a lot) for 29 years. These wear marks create NO detriment to accuracy that is noticable.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V