Need some help on possible new (antique) purchase

[Small Arms Collector]

I have my eye on an antique muzzle loader (early 18th century reworked early-mid 19th century-pre 1850). What gives me pause though is that the lock mechanism is missing, all other parts are present but the lock work and plate is completely absent. How much would it cost to have a new one made and fitted? It needs to be made as a drop in replacement as if I get this I will not tolerate modifications to the stock or any other parts. I will also need engraving and inlay work done so that the new parts match the work done on the old. There is no nipple, just a hole so it appears it was still in flintlock configuration, or at least had no modifications to the barrel, I would like to keep it that way. About how much would this work run me, and who could do it?

Maker is unknown, but the original barrel Has a crown v proof.

This is a literal work of art, I want it, but not if the required work will break the bank.

[mr. no gold]

Photos please. Your question is akin to asking how long a piece of string is. I'm sure that with more information there are people who can help you here on the Forum. Old locks are not beyond reason or availability for putting the gun in question into a proper condition.
Dick

[Small Arms Collector]

I was just looking for a ball park, am I looking at hundreds or thousands?

[Dennis Glazener]

I was just looking for a ball park, am I looking at hundreds or thousands?

Like Mr NO GOLD said photos would be a big help. If a Germanic lock is proper i.e. a Siler style lock I am sure someone would be willing to fashion one from one of Jim Chamber's gun maker lock's shown below.


Or possibly one of his Siler locks could be modified to look proper on your gun.


Price's for Jim's locks are shown here http://www.flintlocks.com/ under "order" and download or view the .pdf file.

In order to know if this style lock would be proper they would need to see photos of the rifle. If it's an English style gun I know of no gun maker style lock that could be modified.

I suspect that if one of the above options will work that one of our many gunmaker's could fix you up with one and stay in the "Hundreds" excluding engraving. If you need to have an English lock then it might run more  to make one fit the original mortise properly. It would depend on how close one of the available locks came to fitting the original mortise.

BTW welcome to ALR

Hope that helps,
Dennis

[JTR]

A good condition original lock will be many hundreds, depending on quality, etc. Unless the gun is a Military piece, finding an original lock that fits exactly will be next to impossible. For example, in my collection of flint and percussion locks and lock plates, of the 40 or so, none are exactly the same.

As pointed out by Dennis, fitting a new lock and aging it appropriately is a solution, but can require welding and filing to achieve a proper fit. All in all though, you're still in the hundreds.

Post some pictures. There's several ways to skin this cat. It's not the first gun to be missing a lock.

John

[Eric Kettenburg]

If the piece is as nice as you describe, I think it would deserve a lot more consideration than Siler parts.  Those things, used for years in 'restoration' work, stand out like a sore thumb on just about anything.  A lock can be fashioned from a combination of modified commercial components and likely some custom made components and will generally appear much more believable, with a closer appearance to genuine 18th century work, but it will take some thought and some work.  Then of course, the aging - that's going to generally require more than a dunk in a clorox bath    Again, given the quality of the piece you seem to indicate sans pictures, you have to ask yourself honestly whether you want the job done cheaply or do you want it done believably?  The number one cost here is going to be time.

[Small Arms Collector]

I do not yet own it, so I have no pictures.

I do know that the barrel is English but the stock is Ottoman and about 100 years newer than the barrel.  I would imagine that either an English or Ottoman lock would be appropriate.  It doesn't have to be an antique lock, as has been mentioned finding one to fit would be quite a challenge, but it does need to be believable.

I'm given pause though because in addition to the missing lock it appears some of the inlay on the barrel has been polished off at some point in the distant past.

I definitely want quality but at the same time I have a very limited budget and would hate to drag this project out over the next several years, hence why I'm posting this, if it's not feasible for my budget I will just leave the project for someone else.

[JTR]

Hmmm, if it's a typical ottoman gun, frequently called a camel rifle, it's most likely not worth much. Without any pictures it's hard to know just what you're looking at, so my comment might be correct, or not.
John

[Small Arms Collector]

Pistol actually.

[JV Puleo]

It would be highly unusual if the replacement lock wouldn't be about twice as valuable as the pistol. There are valuable eastern arms, but they are extremely rare compared to the tourist junk that is commonly seen. Even with the good stuff, the market here is very weak. I am familiar with a significant collection that was sold at Bonham's, in London, not long ago. The collection was assembled here (in Massachusetts, actually) but it was agreed that it was not worthwhile to try to sell it here. It was the generally low price, lack of interest and poor quality of the vast majority of Turkish/Eastern arms that allowed the collector to amass a significant number of fine pieces but it was a lifetime's work learning what to look for.

[Small Arms Collector]

I'm beginning to lean against this now, it might explain why it appears so affordable.

[CW Smokepole]

Be careful! Back in the 1970-1985 period when it was relatively peaceful in Saudi, Kuwait and Iraq, I found many pieces as you describe here in the souks for sale as souvenirs- a regular cottage industry was producing them, and even a few I looked at had what appeared to be original pieces...
Don't spend much, or better still; just walk away-

[rtc]

Agreed indeed! About the same time as you were in Kuwait, I was in Istanbul and found the merchants most "responsive" to interest I showed in a real 1851 Colt Navy revolver. Within a day, street vendors were presenting me with rather rusty antique-looking similar style revolvers stamped on top of the barrel MADE IN AMERICAN. Yes, that's right. They misspelled MADE IN AMERICA. When I rejected their 'pistols' out of hand, they were very perplexed and argued with eachother about what was the problem. Shopping in these markets is great fun, though.        Regards,   Rich Colton

[ottawa]

I just got back from over seas and the market on antiques riles and MLs is strong over in Afghanistan $200 for an original ''Bess'' or 3 banded Enfield is only $150.  There is probably going to be a lot out there brought home by the GIs.  Most I  looked at the dead give away that they were valley knockoffs were the locks very crude threads for the jaws on the flint locks were almost non existent frizzens had casting pits in them ect so you mite  see a lot of MLs with out locks for sale at cheap prices .

[Hungry Horse]

 If you know your stuff( or are just lucky) when it comes to real antique guns, and parts, you can occasionally score pretty big on some of these "sand muskets". A friend bought a wired up, tacked up, carved up, and general messed up musket, somewhere over in the sandbox. He brought it home just to hang on his wall, to remind him of his service over there. After I got a look at it, I thought it might have been made from salvaged brown bess parts. I sent him to an appraiser friend just to make sure. Yep, it was a restocked first model bess, and other than the parts being poorly engraved in country, they were all matched parts, even the barrel.

            Hungry Horse