Anyone have recommendations on TVM kits?

[PPatch]

Looks like you are coming along and doing your best. You are learning a lot also, good, that is what first guns are about. When you are ready and not before do that muzzle thing, hopefully you surprise yourself with how good it comes out. Just think it through and do your level best, no one could ask more.

Those lock panels require some thought, planning and sketching before you dig in and once you do dig in, and like you say, go slow and deliberate. Below are some website links you can go to and study how others do theirs. You might take your lock apart and outline the lock plate on paper then sketch in around the drawing how you intend to shape the panels. Once you know what you want draw that on the panel in pencil. note that the side plate side is pretty much a mirror of the lock side panel. On the websites pay attention to how much wood remains around the lock when they are finished, you have a lot of wood around yours still. But, you should note that you have that trigger guard pin to deal with which kind of dictates how much wood you can remove below the lock and side plate. Pay attention too to the upper area forward of the lock and how the wood is shaped. Keep the tail end of the lock panels centered in the wrist, they could be very slightly high but not by much. Once you have the lock side done make a rubbing of it and cut that out and use it as your pattern for the off side, watch that trigger guard pin. As for the actual shaping use or make the tool you think will get the job done, fine toothed rasps are useful at first, scrapers (learn how to make and sharpen your own), files, sandpaper on blocks of wood (some don't use sandpaper at all). I think there are as many ways of going about it as there are builders.

Don't forget the ALR library when doing your research, here are those sites:

http://www.jimkibler.net/

http://www.billshipman.com/

http://www.flintriflesmith.com/

http://mitchyatesgunmaker.com/gun-galleries/guns-for-sale/

http://www.markelliottva.com/wordpress/

http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2011/08/copy-of-verners-rifle-by-d-taylor.html

Study, draw, think, then go at it deliberately, do your best.

dave

[bob in the woods]

Usually the ram rod is about 2/3rds  exposed , as you put it. Or at least most that I've seen were like that.  Having it almost or completely exposed is kind of unusual.  I've seen some "kit" stocks with thicker than normal webs between the barrel inlet and the ram rod groove, [ most kits are too thick]  but I honestly have never seen one as bad as yours.  If it were me, I would have sent it back for replacement, since the lock was already inlet, and lowering the barrel would have been another complication.
With that thick a web, I don't see how you can transition that nose cap into the fore stock without it looking strange.  I'd either glue on some wood, and make my own nose cap [ this would allow you to have a thicker web i.e. more wood  = less fragile.
Alternatively, just make like it's been cut back for a bayonet  . Some long rifles suffered this fate .
Good experience for what to watch out for next time.

[frogwalking]

I have been thinking about this issue of thick webs and the resulting extra fore end depth on TVM kits (and finished rifles).  It happens a lot, but not always.  I have no evidence of what I am about to say, other than observations and what I have heard from others.  In other words, I have not spoken to anyone at TVM about it. TVM makes a lot of kits and finished rifles for those who are often new to the sport, and who need the best possible price, while wanting a good shooting rifle.  He often deletes unnecessary parts to get the price lower; parts like the fore end cap and buttplate.  When you delete the forend cap on a long gun with a nice, thin web between ram rod and barrel, you invite a crack in the stock from muzzle to trigger guard.  (Having had this sort of thing happen on a pistol, I do know this happens.)  To avoid incurring the cost of the fore end cap, one can make the web thicker at no penalty in cost.  This is generally not objectionable to a newcomer.  The method TVM uses to avoid having a ramrod hole go astray in the lower fore end is not PC, but it does work every time.  The only functional penalty to pay for this routed ramrod hole is to make the rifle more prone to cracking.  The solution to this is to make the stock deeper in this location, which fits with the thick web. 

I have seen rifles from TVM, or rather photos of rifles, with nice thin fore ends, so I feel that Matt is fully capable of building a rifle with nice architecture for those who ask for and pay for it.  If anyone disagrees with the foregoing statement, I am purely speculating, and will accept any reasonable alternative explanation. 

[EC121]

For those who buy precarved stocks with the routed ramrod channel, a hardwood popsicle stick from the hobby dept. will fit right in the groove of the routed channel and strengthen the fore end of the stock.  It is a press fit.  A little CA glue or wood glue will nail it in place.  Still plenty of room for the ramrod.

[Mike Brooks]

You just gotta do something with the size of those lock panels.....
 As to webs, Tvm's always have webs like that, never seen one that didn't....'course I spose I haven't seen them all . This one must be 1/2" or a bit more which is a bit on the excessive side , even for TVM. You can always spot TVM guns at a glance on the net, thick forestocks and a peculiar bend in the wrist when the customer calls for more drop. Neither here nor there actually, every builder has their own quirks and there always seems to be plenty of customers to go around.
 Of course now I've made myself a target for Hanshi to take a shot at.

Their are several kit makers that have proper webs and fully drilled ram rod holes, Chambers pops immediately to mind. I believe Jim Klien's kits are thin webbed also. I have heard Keck has a good product but don't have any experience with his stuff. I suspect you end up getting what you pay for......or so the story goes.

[blackjack]

Very much appreciate your insight, Mike.  To address the web issue, I got rid of as much wood as I could.  I skorped out the original ramrod channel almost 3/8 and took away the wood around it so the ramrod is still pretty exposed.  I also scraped the wood down to about 1/3 of the side flats.  The forestock is still kind of rounded and wide and I'll probably thin that some, but it's the backbone, so to speak, of the rifle, so I'm hesitant to thin it out too much.  Plus, I really like the feel of the rifle as the stock smooths out.  This is a shooter, not a copy of somebody elses rifle, so that has to count for something.

Have trimmed back the lock panels a bit and am getting a feel for how they should look for my next gun.  In my next pics I think you'll notice them smaller and better fitted to the lock size, also similar on both sides.  Not sure how well I'll be able to do with this, but we'll see.  

I did the stock repair today.  A popsicle stick (basically) thinned, and inletted into the forestock and the nosecap support piece, the acraglassed the $#*! out of it (per frogwalker).  The nosecap is on forever now, at least I think.  I "release-agented" the barrel multiple times so hopefully no sticking.  Will check in the morning and post pics if it works.  

Still working on the architecture.  Possibly need some smaller and better rasps and files.  May drive up to Woodcraft and see what thy have in the afternoon.  The stock mass TVM sends out is huge.  Getting rid of the excess wood is hard because I have trouble visualizing what it should be.  Still, forging on.

After looking at what tool makers want for a skorp or scraper, I made my own versions which worked pretty good.  I have one commercial scraper which is excellent, but the home made versions work pretty well also for the specific tasks they were made for.



So tomorrow, the bill is check the stock repair.  If it's good, take the rifle apart and start sanding and prepping the wood for finish, including some reshape where it seems appropriate to my untrained eye.  Doing a lot of picture looking and comparing it to the two rifles I have on hand, a TVM and a Robert Taylor build.  Both are simple but good classical lines to compare.  

BTW, I'm striping the ramrod.  I've seen a couple rifles like that and think it is a classy effect.  I'm told Virginia rifles had that ramrod pattern on more than a few occasions.

Thanks again for all comments and critiques.  I'll do my best to keep you all posted.

[WadePatton]

Blackjack, I really like your tools there.  The best tool is the one that works and is easy to procure/make.

You appear to be an excellent Grasshopper. 

We don't know about me yet...

[bama]

It appears that you are a determined beginning builder that is on a fast learning curve. Watching your thread makes smile a bit and remember some of my learning lessons when i first started building. Like you will i managed to get my first rifle together and shooting. I learned a bunch and made a ton of mistakes, that was 40 years ago. Even though my work was not perfect i did not let that discourage me. I am still trying to build that perfect rifle. Maybe i will get it built before i go to that big shop in the sky, if not, well i can truely say i have enjoyed every build. I hope you finish your build and you shoot and enjoy your rifle. I also hope you continue to build and improve. 

[smokinbuck]

Perhaps I am way off base but regarding the nose cap; How about not adding back the broken end of the fore stock and reshaping the existing end where it is and pouring a cap. I have seen a few rifles with more than 1/8 -1/4 inch of barrel protruding past the nose cap. The ram rod channel wouldn't be effected or the length of the rod.
Mark

[davebozell]

From the pictures, it appears that you could inlet the front ramrod pipe a little deeper.  This will help close up the gap between your barrel and ramrod.  It also appears that you can remove lots of wood from the sides of your forestock.  You should only have 1/16" of wood on the sides of your barrel.  Look for pictures of Chuck Edward's rifles for examples.  His rifles are very thin, as are many other builders.

I'm building my first rifle as well, however it's taken me three years so far.  (Work keeps getting in the way.). The best advise you've been given so far is to go slow.  I tend to work in spurts.  When I run into a bump in the road, I come back to this forum and see what others have done.  When I can't find the answer, I ask it here.  As you have found, there are lots of folks here willing to provide advise and encouragement. Best of luck!

[blackjack]

Okay, weekend update.

The patch is holding great.  Here's a couple pics.  First, inlet into nosecap piece, then inlet into stock, then the popsicle stick patch, then the finished product.









It held fine through shaping of the front end of the stock as well as heavy sanding and whiskering.  Here's where it is today.



The stock is now shaped the way I want it, basic carvings in place and an inlet hunter start and brass oval thumb piece.  All the brass is smoothed out and I'm ready to put some stain on it this week.





There's lots of things I will do differently on the next one, but I'm glad to have picked the TVM kit for my first build.  I'm pleased at how the rifle is coming out so far and will put up pics when I get it finished and put the first rounds down range.

Thanks again for all the observations made, and any other comments welcome.

[blackjack]

Got the rifle stained.  Surprised at how much of that Birchwood Casey brown stain it takes to get the gun actually brown.  Got the first coat of tung oil on the wood today and touched up the brass some.  



Next took on the aging of the barrel.  That was the part about which I felt most unsure.  There's a lot of info out there but it's conflicting.  Wasn't really sure what to expect when dealing with these rusting products.  Wound up using Birchwood Casey Plum Brown.  

The barrel was pretty dinged up from the building phase so had to draw file it, then emery cloth it smooth.  Came out pretty nice.  Rigged the barbeque grill up to heat the barrel up to 275 degrees and provide me a little support for turning and coating it.  Worked great.  Two coats had a pretty good rust all over the barrel.  

After cooling, scrubbed it down with soapy water driven by steel wool.  The result was a pretty good aged look that is smooth and even and goes well with the wood finish, very close to what's on the TVM guns I've bought.

[PPatch]

Congratulations Blackjack! You got'er done. You learned A LOT making her too. Proud of you man, now you know what is involved in creating one of these smoke poles. Your next will go much faster.

Glad you were able to work on that nose area, that was a bugger. Don't be knocking stuff around in the shop from now on. )  Easy does it, every ding comes back to bite you. On the next one study the style you intend to imitate, even pick out a particular gun to copy as best you can.

Let us know how she shoots.

dave

[blackjack]

Thanks Dave.  Shooting will be a ways off because I plan to do multiple tung oilings to put a really nice finish on it and leave it for at least a day if not two between oilings and steel woolings. 

Next rifle already on the way in.  It's a Track of the Wolf J.P. Beck with a Rice swamped 42" bbl in .45 cal and a top of the line stock.  This one is for a friend who happens to be named Beck.  I'm looking forward to the build to build on the experience I already have, and in the back of my mind thinking about building one from a block of wood.

Dixons gun fair is at the top of my vacation plans this month and who knows, may bring a block of wood home with some plans.

Still very glad I started with a TVM kit and a straight barrel.  Thanks to all for the advice along the way. 

[bob in the woods]

Try to get RCA 1 and 2  [ Rifles of Colonial America ] and go over the fine details of these great rifles.  Dixon's is a great idea, simply to look at [ and handle if possible ] as many examples of what you intend to build.  Having the image of what things are supposed to look like in your head is invaluable .  Example  =  ram rod groove , lock panels etc.
For my own part, I wish I'd started with a Chambers kit.  I would have much farther along in the long run.

[Keithbatt]

You have a lot more speed than I do, and more courage.  I'm looking forward to seeing how your next rifle progresses from this one. I'm sure you learned a lot. I work so slowly, I don't think I get as much from it. 

Keith

[PPatch]

That is some good advice regarding looking and handling originals AND good contemporary work, There is a problem with it too and that is knowing what you are looking at and why. It would be good to make a list if the things you intend to study about them. This way you can be more directed in your research and probably take more away from the experience.

dave

[blackjack]

Here's a few pics of the finished product.  Shot it at an NMLRA shoot this past weekend, and while I didn't exactly cover myself with glory, it wasn't the rifle's fault.  I really like this little thing, but if I had it to do over again, I'd have chosen a swamped barrel as Mike suggested early on.  Problem now fixed,... next rifle will have a swamped barrel!

Anyway here's how it came out:







I'm pretty happy with lots of it, but wish I had done better in some other areas.  The forestock is still too thick and I toy with the idea of taking it apart and getting that stock thinner, then refinishing.  The sideplate is still pretty amateruish and I toy with the idea of replacing it or putting a liner or something under it that will let me "re-inlet."  The right side of the butt where a box would be isn't flat enough and I toy with putting a box in there or just flatteing it more.  But at the same time, people keep telling me it's a good first rifle.  It shoots great, balances great, and looks passable so I'm leaning toward leaving it the way it is and applying lessons learned to the next rifle, which is already underway.

I see a lot of pro- and anti-TVM discussion on here.  I would just say that TVM has done me well.  The build hasn't been easy but it's a passable shooter, and a great place to start.  I'd recommend their products highly.

[bob in the woods]

I have to tell you; that sure looks better than my first rifle.  Maybe inlet the trigger guard extensions a bit more…take a look at other rifles to see what I mean.  Otherwise, I'd just shoot the thing.  You could end up chasing mistakes till the cows come home.  Besides, there's lots of folks who will think it looks great. Until I learned from a great number of helpful people who were willing to freely share their knowledge ; and looked at a bunch of originals, I didn't know what I was doing wrong myself.
Why not just plan for the next one ?

[PPatch]

Agreeing with Bob in the woods here BlackJack. Live with it, shoot it, plan your next effort based on it and all you learned from it. Someday you may want to redo it, but for now leave it be.

Hope you had a chance to see some originals at the shoot, bet it was nice to shoot your own selfmade rifle.

dave

[Joe S.]

you done well and overcame things that may have discouraged a first time builder,congrats and I see your already on to another build.Looks like the build bug bit you good!