Author Topic: Fur Trade Firearms  (Read 14025 times)

Offline Kevin Houlihan

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Fur Trade Firearms
« on: August 12, 2015, 04:59:22 AM »
   I posted this here because I felt I had the best chance at getting the information that I needed.  If the moderators feel I've posted this in the wrong place then please feel free to move it. 
  I'm giving a presentation in a few months on "Rocky Mountain Fur Trade Firearms 1825-1840". I need some direction on the best place to look for facts on what types of long guns were "commonly" available and who supplied the fur brigades or individuals with firearms.  My concentration is on the early part of the time period so Hawken is too late to be available in any quantity and Lehman didn't go into business for himself until about 1834. I'm looking for book  recommendations, web sites or even a good discussion.  Thanks in advance for your help.
Kevin

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2015, 06:05:51 AM »
Hi Snap,

Not sure why you think the Hawken brothers were too late to supply Fur Trade firearms 1825-1840.

Jacob Hawken was in Missouri by 1818.  About that time he became partners with an established St. Louis gunsmith, James Lakenan.  Samuel Hawken was in St. Louis ca. 1821, and was gunsmithing on his own until Lakenan died in 1825 and Jacob and Samuel became partners shortly after.

http://www.mman.us/jshawken.htm has much more info.

-Ron
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Offline Kevin Houlihan

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2015, 02:52:19 PM »
Ron,
 I stand corrected.  That's exactly the type of specific information that I'm looking for.  Thank you. I tend to think of Hawkens as 1/2 stock percussion rifles because of the remaining examples. I seem to forget about the brother's earlier work.
Thank you again
Kevin

Offline Dphariss

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« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2015, 05:23:01 PM »
Look to "Firearms of the American West  1803-1865' by Garavaglia and Worman. IIRC Sam Hawken claimed they made rifles for Ashely. But early on there was likely a large number of Kentucky Rifles. Which is basically what the Henry and Leman guns were as were the FS Hawkens. By 1830 the 1/2 stock Hawken was pretty well finalized. The 1/2 stock rifle predates the Western Fur Trade since it appeared in England in the 1790s if not before and the 1/2 stock Hawken is basically an English Sporting Rifle cira 1800 from the breech of the barrel forward. Then there is the 1803 Harpers Ferry. So do not discount the 1/2 stock rifle. While is was likely rare in the US in 1820 it was not unknown.

Dan
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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2015, 05:56:00 PM »
 I think Dan has made some valid points. The gunsmiths on the frontier I believe learned a lot about what type of rifle would best serve the fur trade. I believe the similarities between the 1803 Harpers Ferry and the later heavy caliber half stocked plains rifles is no accident. I also would suspect that the unpopular Harpers Ferry military rifle was more than likely sold in fairly large numbers on the frontier once the became military surplus.

   Hungry Horse

Offline longcruise

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2015, 06:46:09 PM »
Didn't one of the Hawken boys work at harpers ferry during the time of the building of those rifles?

Had not heard that they were unpopular with the troops.
Mike Lee

Offline Kevin Houlihan

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2015, 07:15:45 PM »
  These are all good points that I hadn't considered.  I just ordered the book that Dan mentioned. I know that there were gunsmiths back east that had government contracts at different times and wonder if these contract rifles came into play.  Also, firearms were available at rendezvous each summer, but does anyone have an idea if they were newly made, surplus military or contract rifles?
Thanks - very helpful discussion.
Kevin

Offline louieparker

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2015, 07:40:26 PM »
 There is a new book on the fur trade by Milton von Damm  .  Covers a wide range of guns and other things......LP

54ball

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2015, 07:51:35 PM »
 Here's some names for you....
 Dickert..very prolific maker, one was on display at the Alamo.
 Fordney + a host of other, Penn, Ohio,Kentucky, NC, Tn, ect ect ect where the expedition or trappers originated, likely they would have arms from that locale.
 Conestoga Rifle works
 Derringer...Trade rifles
 Henry...Trade rifles
 Northwest guns...American Philly made/imported...English and Belgian...
 The double shotgun begins come to prominence though the first half of the 19th Century
 Hardware store rifles...NY,NE, Midwest


Offline RAT

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2015, 07:59:54 PM »
Another book is the 1st volume of the encyclopedia of the fur trade published by the Museum of the Fur Trade.
Bob

Offline snrub47

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2015, 08:19:19 PM »
James Gordon's Book Weapons In Early American History has a chapter on the Fur Trade, 1814-1840, great book.

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2015, 10:44:49 PM »
Philip Creamer was working in the area of Cahokia and Kaskaskia, IL from around 1800 on. His house, located in an existing gravel quarry was torn down 20 years ago, or so. He made guns, both pistols and rifles, for travelers and fur traders.
Dick

Offline jdm

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2015, 10:55:34 PM »
Don't forget Tryon and John Dreppard.
JIM

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2015, 10:59:19 PM »
Snap, you've received some good recommendations on referenced books that I also endorse, but there are some other books you might consider to fully round out your understanding of the types of guns used in the early years of the "Rocky Mountain Fur Trade".

The single best resource is The Encyclopedia Of Trade Goods Vol. 1: Firearms Of The Fur Trade by James A. Hanson.  Other good books to add you your library are For Trade And Treaty by Ryan R. Gale and American Military Shoulder Arms Vol. II by George Moller.  And of course Charles E. Hanson, Jr.'s book, The Hawken Rifle: Its Place In History, helps to put the Hawken rifle in perspective.

It helps to visualize the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade as an extension of the the fur trade that had existed in North America since the 1600's.  Trade guns played a significant role in the full history of the fur trade.  The market for trade guns was probably second only to the market for military firearms in the 18th century and early part of the 19th century and influenced the development of firearms.

The early records of the American Fur Company, from 1808 to the early 1820's, were destroyed by fire and records of other early fur companies are scarce.  As a result, it helps to look at records of the Hudson Bay Company and British and American government purchases to see what type of firearms were common in the early fur trade.  Private fur companies were purchasing firearms from many of the same gun makers as the HBC, the British Office of Indian Trade, and the American Office of Indian Trade and later Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Smooth bore longarms were a staple of the fur trade with the dominate arm being the North West trade gun developed by the HBC.  Other smooth bores were common such as the typical English fowler and the English Type G or Carolina trade gun.  And we shouldn't overlook French trade guns since they controlled the Mississippi River region for so long.

Some knowledgeable experts suspect that the Type G and other English fowlers played a big role in the development of the American longrifle.  They believe the Indians and the Indian traders wanted a rifle that had the capabilities of the Jeager, but the handling characteristics of the Type G trade gun.  Pennsylvania and possibly some Southern gun makers were eager to satisfy this market demand.

Records of the British Office of Indian Trade show that the British were exporting English trade rifles to America during the Revolutionary War, but there are indications that English gun makers were already supplying these trade rifles to private traders prior to the War.  George Shumway has documented several types of these English trade rifles in a series of articles for the Buckskin Report in the early 1980's and updated the material for the Proceedings Of The 1984 Trade Gun Conference which was published by the Rochester Museum & Science Center.

Surviving documents indicate that the AFC ordered all their NW trade guns and their trade rifles from England well into the early 1820's.  The early English trade rifles are copies of Lancaster longrifles.  Later versions incorporated some military characteristics to reduce manufacturing costs.  The last version of the English trade rifle was copied by J.J. Henry in 1828 and became known as his "Old English" pattern rifle.

The fact that the English chose a copy an early Lancaster rifle during the Revolutionary War for the Indian trade indicates that the Lancaster rifle was already well established as a standard in the trade prior to the War.

In 1875, the US government formed the US Factory System to trade with Indian tribes.  Interestingly enough, some of the first rifles issued to Indians through the Factory System were US 1792 contract rifles.  These are the model that some believe that Lewis and Clark took on their Corps of Discovery Expedition.  Little else is know about the other rifles purchased by the US Office of Indian Trade prior to 1803.  Some apparently are similar to the English trade rifles and others were likely "similar to commercial rifles made in Lancaster and York, Pennsylvania" [Moller].

In 1803, the US government contracted with Dickert, DeHuff & Co for trade rifles.  Gun makers associated with this company were Jacob Dickert, Henry DeHuff, George Miller, John Bender, Christopher Gumpf, and Peter Gonter.  Other purchases were made from gun makers Jonathan Guest, Joseph Henry, John Miles, and Henry Pickel.  Many of these same gun makers were supplying rifles to various private fur trading companies, also.

In 1809, Henry Deringer entered into his first contract for rifles with the US Office of Indian Trade for the Factory System.  Deringer would soon become the dominate supplier of rifles to the Factory System and later Bureau of Indian Affairs.  By 1822 when William Ashley and Andrew Henry advertised for "Enterprising Young Men" to ascend the Missouri River, thousands of Deringer rifles had been distributed to US Trade Factories from the Great Lakes, along the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers, and all along the Southern frontier from Tennessee and Georgia to Arkansas.  The majority of these rifles were traded to Indian customers, but a number would have ended up in the hands of non-Indians.  These would have been "Border Men"--the very type that answered Ashley and Henry's ad.  So it is very likely that Deringer rifles were present.  It is also likely that Delaware, Shawnee, and other "removed" Indians that participated in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade carried some Deringer rifles.  An interesting side note, several hundred Deringer rifles intended for the Factories were issued to Andrew Jackson's men during the War of 1812 and were used at the Battle of New Orleans.  Some of these rifles may have eventually made their way to the Rocky Mountains, also.

To sum up, smooth bore guns used in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade from 1825-1840 were predominately North West trade guns with some English and American fowlers and a smattering of French trade guns.

Prior to the Revolutionary War, the early Lancaster longrifle was established as the standard for the Indian trade.  As the Pennsylvania rifle continued to evolve in the early 19th century into what we commonly call the Kentucky rifle, a very plain version became the "pattern" for the fur trade.  Records from the American Fur Company and other fur companies in the late 1820's to the 1840's referred to this as the American and Lancaster pattern, interchangeably.  This would have been the most common rifle in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade.  English trade rifles, both imported and Henry's version would have likely been second.  Philadelphia rifles from Deringer and Tryon would have been present in significant numbers.  Hawken rifles were relatively scarce in the Rocky Mountains in the late 1820's, but gradually increased in the 1830's and more common in the 1840's.  Even though a few Hawken rifles are mentioned in inventories for the rendezvous and Missouri River trading posts, more Hawken rifles probably went west via the Santa Fe Trail to Bent's Fort and Taos.  By the end of the beaver trade and during the robe trade, more Hawken rifles were likely present in the southern Rockies and the plains from Fort Laramie to Bent's Fort than the northern Rockies.
Phil Meek

Offline J I

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2015, 12:14:55 AM »
Kevin,
If I remember correctly Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men by Carl P. Russell is a good reference for this topic. It has been many years since I read it and no longer have a copy to be sure if the dates are what you are looking for.

This web site has some pictures of originals. It's from www.mtmen.org I did not see dates listed for these rifles and trade guns
http://user.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/museum/guns/guns.html

Here is another web site that has some descriptions of the different rifles used. It also lists some reference books to look at.
http://www.mman.us/guns.htm

I hope this helps.
JI

Offline Kevin Houlihan

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2015, 01:56:06 AM »
Thanks to all who have replied. This gives me an awesome start. I already have Firearms Traps and Tool, Hawken Rifle - It's Place in History and some others. My tendency was to discount the Russel book because he inferred that Hawken rifles were much more common than we believe now. My problem is when I read something in a book that doesn't fit in with current scholarly information I tend to then ignore the rest of the book. This is really fantastic information. Don't anyone feel he need to slow down the influx of information ;-)
Thanks to all
Kevin

Offline RAT

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2015, 05:01:48 PM »
I discounted the Russel book from the start when I saw an illustration of a USMC KBar knife in it.

Phil Meek listed the title of the book by James A. Hanson that I was suggesting. I wrote that post from work so I didn't have the exact title handy. Contact the Museum of the Fur Trade to see if they still have copies available. If not, check with your local library to see if they have a copy or can get one via inter library loan.
Bob

Online rich pierce

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2015, 05:21:17 AM »
This thread is an example of the lengths to which folks are wiling to help each other on this forum.  Such detailed and well thought out replies are nothing short of generous.
Andover, Vermont

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2015, 08:35:15 PM »
Hanson, Charles. E The Trade Gun Sketch Book The fur Trade Press. 1978

I think there is a trade rifle one as well.

If you are super keen get access to an Academic Journal search engine and read primary reports about what was dug out of the ground.
 Pretty quick you'll learn that 9/10ths of what we think we know is loose interpretation. ;)


Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2015, 05:07:57 AM »
Its a little pre 1825, but in 1822 the first Ashley expedition lost a boat full of supplies...didn't he return
to St Louis and basically scrounge up every gun he could find among other things to outfit another?
These were the turbulent lead mine days around St. Louis too...a time of everything from folks like the backwoods Boone clan and their friends living nearby to fancy gentleman duelists plugging each other with fine pistols on Bloody Island....there were rich junto factions battling it out politically between the old French bloods and the new Americans, and poor but armed Native Americans regularly wandering the streets, and likely everything in between...meaning that Ashley likely had a pretty interesting assortment of fire arms to choose from...
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« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 05:20:34 AM by T.C.Albert »
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Offline Ryan McNabb

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2015, 08:52:54 PM »
Hugh Glass was carrying a Peter Angstadt rifle when he got chomped in 1823, or so I read.  Lots of Kentuckies I'm sure got used, and used up, out there.

Mtn Meek, that was excellent information, thank you.

About how many real Hawkens exist today?  I think I've seen then same 3 or 4 rifles my whole life, either in photos or in person.  Are there even a dozen left?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 09:00:12 PM by Ryan McNabb »

Offline Ryan McNabb

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2015, 09:04:20 PM »
Hanson, Charles. E The Trade Gun Sketch Book The fur Trade Press. 1978

I think there is a trade rifle one as well.

If you are super keen get access to an Academic Journal search engine and read primary reports about what was dug out of the ground.
 Pretty quick you'll learn that 9/10ths of what we think we know is loose interpretation. ;)



Oh boy, did you just say a mouthful!

Online rich pierce

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2015, 09:50:37 PM »
About how many real Hawkens exist today?  I think I've seen then same 3 or 4 rifles my whole life, either in photos or in person.  Are there even a dozen left?

At least 20 exist. Maybe 40. I've seen pictures of a rack of a dozen Hawken "mountain" rifles from one museum.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Ryan McNabb

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2015, 10:57:35 PM »
I had no idea.  Thanks.

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Fur Trade Firearms
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2015, 07:55:24 PM »
Mtn Meek, that was excellent information, thank you.

About how many real Hawkens exist today?  I think I've seen then same 3 or 4 rifles my whole life, either in photos or in person.  Are there even a dozen left?

Thanks for your kind comment, Ryan.

You do see the same Hawken rifles pictured in the literature over and over such as Kit Carson's last Hawken and Jim Bridger's last Hawken.

But if you search carefully, you can find many others.  There are about 25-30 J&S Hawken rifles that have been published in the literature or pictured on the internet.  There are probably twice that amount of S. Hawken rifles pictured in various medium.  In addition, there are a number of other Hawken rifles in private collections that have never been published in the literature and are only exhibited at collector gun shows or show up at auctions.  So the number of existing Hawken rifles likely exceeds 100.

Not all of these are the classic mountain or plains rifle, though.  Some are small caliber sporting rifles, a few are large caliber target rifles, and some appear to be inexpensive utility rifles like the single key half stock rifles that Baird pictured in his books.
Phil Meek