Thick and thin border

[smart dog]

Hi,
The simple thick and thin border can really add a lot to a metal part or inlay but I find it to be very challenging, especially on a curved surface.  I believe it is one of the basic skills any engraver should have and if you can do it right, you will have no trouble with scroll work.  You can hide a lot of errors in a scroll, but parallel lines show up errors like a beacon.

dave
 

[Boatman53]

Very nice Dave. What is the material you were engraving? I have a machinist marking gauge, I wonder how it would work. I use it for scribing parallel lines on flat panels, never tried going around curves.
Jim

[James Rogers]

Beautiful Dave,
I love the thick/thin borders. One of these days

[flatsguide]

That is nice work Dave. I agree, no room for error.
Regards, Richard

[jerrywh]

  Thick and thin borders are very hard to do . It takes a very accomplished  engraver to do them correctly. It is normally one of the tests the Firearms Engravers Guild requires for an engraver to achieve the title of master engraver. Doing it on a curved  surface is not easy. Doing it on a flat plate for long distances can be even more telling. Roman letters are also unforgiving. 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Nicely done Dave.  Now I'd like to see some more pictures of that rifle.

[smart dog]

Hi and thanks for looking folks,
Jerry, you are right for sure.  Long parallel lines are really tough.  I am not fast because I have to go back and clean them up.  I don't qualify as a master.  Jim, the metal is steel and I mark guide lines with simple dividers.  I don't know what a machinist's gage looks like.  Taylor, the stock needs a little more finish and I have to get the engraving done.  I'll post photos soon but here is a little taste of it:



dave

[Mark Elliott]

I really wish I could afford to spend some time working with those of you who are so accomplished at engraving.   I really do think I could benefit from some hands on instruction.  I do feel I rush too much, but that is because I have so much trouble controlling my muscles (spinal cord damage).   I rush to finish the cut before I completely loose control.   I have to find work-arounds to my physical limitations and it makes carving and engraving particularly challenging.   One of the things I try to do is use as short a cuts as possible.   I don't know how to do long lines with short cuts; at least not yet.   Any suggestions would be appreciated. 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Dave:  is this a swivel breech rifle?  I like everything so far.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Mark, I sympathize with your struggle.  All I can say is that I use a mental dodge wherein I treat each 1/2" of line as my whole project.  I focus my mind on making that segment as perfect as I can and then go to the next segment.  I don't try to think of the whole line or finished job. Perhaps, if you could learn what distance you can cut under full control, you could limit your thought and effort to that scale, and then move on to the next piece of the task taking breaks between segments.  You can always go back and clean up areas where your segments connect to make the whole cut look smooth.  The same with carving. 

Taylor, it is a swivel breech rifle.  The action was made by Dave Price and I am stocking it for a friend.  Dave's actions are very well designed but they do limit options with respect to architecture.  My friend is large and tall, and the gun has a 15" LOP and 4" drop at the heel.  It was a real challenge keeping it from looking like a hockey stick.

dave

[Boatman53]

That's looking really nice Dave!
Here is my marking gauge I was talking about.









It's got fine adjustment, and the "tooth" is vee shaped. Perhaps it could scribe a line that the graver could follow to make the lines deeper.
Jim

[David Rase]

Taylor, it is a swivel breech rifle.  The action was made by Dave Price and I am stocking it for a friend.  Dave's actions are very well designed but they do limit options with respect to architecture.  My friend is large and tall, and the gun has a 15" LOP and 4" drop at the heel.  It was a real challenge keeping it from looking like a hockey stick.

dave

Dave,
I have an upcoming project next year where the client wants a.40 caliber rifle with a 15" LOP.  I would love to hear of your challenges, or limitations as I am sure you have learned a few lessons on this project.
David

I really like the silver sun inlay and the silver wire rays.

[Mark Elliott]

Dave,

Thanks for the advise.   It is useful to know that is how you work.   

[J. Talbert]

Dave,

Nice work; not to mention the Roman letters.

Jeff

[kutter]

Shape & Sharpen up a couple 'flat' bottom gravers of the width you want for each of the 2 lines.
 Don't leave any taper to the sides at the tip, you don't want the sides to drag & leave a furrow to the cut line.
The tool(s) will cut a uniform width line for you even if you vary the depth  as you go a long.
Still try and keep the depth as uniform as possible as you go. It shows good craftsmanship and tool control.

Cutting a straight line is still up to your skill of course, but the flat graver with a some what long heal on it will more easily cut the straight line than a graver with a very short heal.
You usually can't get away with a long heal behind the cutting edge as it will drag going around corners,,but it you are just doing bbl borders and no twists and turns you can use it.

The uniform widths of the two lines are what gives the simple border it's nice look, but can be hard to obtain especially with a V shaped point. A rounded work surface doesn't help either.
Any slight variance of depth of cut with the V point,, and the width varys also. You end up trying to even the line out from one end to the other with varying success.

The thin line 'flat' graver will be narrow indeed, but handled carefully will be no more a fragile point than an acute angle V. The line it cuts need not be deep for it's effect to be shown.

[Dphariss]

That sun inlay is a knockout. Like the rest of it too.

Dan

[Captchee]

very nice job

[smart dog]

Hi Folks,
Thank you for the nice comments.  Dan, I am glad you like the sun inlay within the carving.  It is my attempt at a little creativity.  Kutter, thank you for that advice.  When I read your note I had a Homer Simpson "Doh..." moment.  I nearly forgot that I had a coffee mug in my hand when I dope slapped myself.  Jim, thanks for those photos of the marking gage.  Would it scribe around round corners well? I also make sure my guide lines are very light because I don't cut along them, I cut adjacent to the line so the guide is always visible until the job is done. Then I polish it off.

Dave Rase - I don't think you should have any trouble simply proportioning the elements of the butt stock to a long LOP.  Basically, you just have to fill in the space so that the length of wrist, space behind cheek piece, etc. don't look out of proportion.  I accomplish that by visualizing the negative space between features.  However, there is an added complication for swivel breeches.  By default, to accommodate the swivel mechanism and locking screw (with nut), the stock extends fairly straight back from the barrel breeches before it can arc down.  That gives many swivel breeches a hockey stick appearance.  Having a large drop and LOP makes that problem worse.  I solved it as best I could by subtly beginning my downward arc immediately after the breech as much as possible while still accommodating the swivel mechanism. Then I also shaped the lock panels to create the illusion of a smooth drop. I think you will get the idea when I post the finished photos.  It was a challenge.

Thanks again everyone,

dave