Author Topic: Gain twist question  (Read 5884 times)

Offline L. Akers

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Gain twist question
« on: November 26, 2015, 11:28:46 PM »
Some years ago I thought it might be interesting to see if I could make a bullet barrel.  I settled on a caliber and bullet weight/length and from Greenhill's formula determined a terminal twist rate.  I wanted to do a gain twist because if Harry Pope used a gain twist he must have had a pretty good reason to do so.  So my question is concerning how to accelerate the twist to the terminal twist rate -- should that acceleration be linear or logarithmic.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Gain twist question
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2015, 11:51:51 PM »
I can't be of much help on that. I'm sure you've read Harry Pope's work on rifling? A contemporary bullet gun rifle maker might be willing to talk about their experience. Ken Bresien (retired) comes to mind.
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Gain twist question
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2015, 11:57:34 PM »
Take a look at what Colerain offers http://www.colerainbarrel.com/gain_twist_rifling.html

Please remember we are only discussing traditional sidelock muzzleloading rifles and not the later use of gain twist in cartridge rifles.

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« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 12:02:55 AM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline Gaeckle

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Re: Gain twist question
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2015, 01:51:07 AM »
I'm not so sure that gain twist is all that spectacular or anything special. I do have a rifling machine with a very slight gain of twist (1/66 to 1/60) that will produce a very good shooting barrel for calibers of 45 and up, provided I can do everything right. I am the weak link in that equation. I have two leads for the machine: one for larger calibers and one for smaller (40 and under).

From what I understand, the roundball as a sphere is consistant from side to side whereas a bullet, due to it's leangth and olgive needs a consistant rate to stabilize it because it is not round and a variation of twist rate could cause it to yaw and keyhole. A roundball will shoot pretty good from a smoothbore barrel, but with a twist will provide better acuracy at longer distances.

I also notice that in the old original barrels I own, the twist rate is very slow and the calibers are below 40. When I make a rifle with these using the original rifling (rather than ream and rifle) I need to come up with a load that allows the gun to shoot and they shoot pretty accurately.....so it makes me wonder if twist rates for caliber need to be that specific, and that is why I speculate that gain twist is just a buzz word so to speak. But that is just my opinion based upon my own observations.


« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 04:33:41 AM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Gain twist question
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2015, 05:27:00 AM »
  I made a gain twist guide for my rifling machine once. Never made any difference. I seem to remember that pope determined the same thing. There were muzzle loading rifles with gain twist barrels but it was determined that there was no advantage to the system.  All the modern muzzle loading barrel makers will tell you the same thing.  There isn't much that hasn't been tried many times.
 Will somebody please translate linear or logarithmic into redneck or hillbilly?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 05:30:44 AM by jerrywh »
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Offline KNeilson

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Re: Gain twist question
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2015, 06:46:47 AM »
Im no math teacher but......Linear measurement is like a tape measure, all divisions being equal to infinity, Logarythmic means to increase or decrease each division slightly, the amount being mathematically (sp) equal or similar. Like comparing the apex of a circle vs a scroll
 To the OP I suggest reading "Rifling Machines and Methods" By  Cliff LaBounty  , They reverse engineer Popes original equipment and discuss this subject

Offline frogwalking

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Re: Gain twist question
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2015, 07:21:51 AM »
I am just a frog, but it seems that if one starts a long bullet out at one twist rate, and changes the twist as it travels down the barrel. when it leaves the barrel, instead of nice clean grooves spaced around the circumference, it will have wider grooves that don't fit any of the differing rates.  Sort of smeared lead.  I cannot see how this would make a long bullet more accurate.  With the very short contact of a round ball and the patching, this should not be an issue.  Being a frog, and never having rifled a barrel, likely I should not have said anything.  (I once attended a Sunday school class where the preacher said that we were comparing and combining our ignorance.  Here, I am merely continuing that tradition.)
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Offline KNeilson

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Re: Gain twist question
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2015, 07:53:50 AM »
Quote
instead of nice clean grooves spaced around the circumference, it will have wider grooves that don't fit any of the differing rates.
Like a"slight choke" in a barrel is said to improve RB accuracy, apparently there are those that believe a simlar effect in the rifling (groove width and depth decreasing to muzzle) produces the same "increased potential for accuracy". Gain twist is said to do this, a subject discussed in the book mentioned
imho the caveat is the word potential...

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Gain twist question
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2015, 08:59:36 AM »
 Twist is better when measured in rpm than in turns pr. ft. when it relates to a trajectory.
 I think the best member of this forum to enlighten us on this subject is Dave Crisalli. Dave is a graduate of Annapolis and is an expert in ordinance. He knows more about bullet trajectory than anybody I know. 
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Offline KNeilson

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Re: Gain twist question
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2015, 12:02:03 PM »
I really shouldnt be talking now, as my rifling pedigree is one 18" barrel with rudimentary equipment, along with a few recently read books off the internet, and a welding ticket ::)  with that, I achieved what gaeckle said. I just find the subject addictive for some reason. Let me add my 10c hoping for the same clarity ..    ? in OP,  should the increase (gain) in twist be linear or logarithmic ..  Well,  Im imagining the projectile behaving like a kid on a bike, on a flat on top of a hill, stationary. The moment of firing, he pushes off and starts to accelerate. The downward angle and length of the hill determining his top speed like the amount of powder you use. Somewhere ahead of him is a choice. Two ramps, lets say equal height, one is just a straight angle like a board and sawhorse and one has a gradual entrance with increasing slight "kick" like a ski jump..  both representing change in Rotational inertia (due to change of twist)of the projectile, or what his butt  might feel as he changes direction more upwards.  Id think Id aim for the smoother or more gradual change, not for a potential bump to upset what stability I have going so far.. Am I gonna go higher or farther at the end, I dunno, that's what little brothers are for ;D    waay too much coffee I think tonite 

 


Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: Gain twist question
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2015, 02:21:07 PM »
There is no advantage with spherical or enlongated projectiles until the volume and mass of the projectile exceeds that capable of being shoulder-fired, but if you want to do it anyway, the gain must be linear.
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Gain twist question
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2015, 05:46:35 PM »
Did the gain twist come about with the Pickett bullet? That bullet has a very short driving band, and a pointed nose. Very hard to load straight into the rifling. This bullet went out of fashion.  I also recall Pope determined that there was no advantage to gain twist.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Gain twist question
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2015, 08:12:35 PM »
Gains for bullets with long bearing surfaces need to be slight, like 1/2" gain or the bullet will have "skid" marks as the front of the bearing surface is in a faster twist than the rear. If the bullet is like a cloth patched "picket" bullet with a very short bearing length then far more aggressive gains can be used. Such as a beginning of 60" and ending at 30".
I would also point out that for long bullets (3 calibers plus) in small arms at BP velocities Greenhill is off about 2". IE if it calls for 20" then 18 is probably the better choice. The formula was designed as a tool in determining the twist for rifled ML field pieces not small arms.  3 caliber long slugs of this type are not used except in slug guns or rifles like the Whitworth that shoot bullets that were the precursors of modern high sectional density bullets.
For a RB I am not sure the gain twist is an advantage but I am not sure inf NOT either.... What I DO think is that the gain twist came about for perhaps one of two reasons. To prevent stripping the patch during initial acceleration when the picket bullet was adopted and it was found that is shot better with a twist faster than the typical 48" twist. It also shot a lot more powder than a RB in most guns.  When I stopped playing with it my 48" twist 40 cal barrel was us to 80 grains of FF Swiss. It may have been a rifling form issue as well. When I was a kid I had a I had a restocked barrel that was turned for a starter. At the time I was too ignorant to know why. It had a 7 sided bore with grooves at the corners and I could not really see how this sealed well. I shot the barrel a little but apparently could not make it shoot. Don't remember. Its been 50 years. It could easily have been a gain twist. But I did not know enough to check ::)
The second possibility is a rifling guide with an inconsistent twist rate that put a slower twist at the muzzle. This is really bad with bullets and can't be good with a RB. Making a guide with a positive gain would eliminate this and the gain twist would be far more accurate. If the uniform twist guide  was truly uniform it would shoot as well as the gain, probably. This said there are "modern", top flight barrel makers that will make a (very slight) gain twist barrel that is extremely accurate. They will also make a uniform twist barrel that is extremely accurate.
My most accurate ML has a McLemore gain twist barrel. He will not give the twist rate. But is so accurate that it would require a good scope to make full use of it. But this is a combination of barrel weight (17 pound 12 ounce rifle), a uniform piece of high grade barrel steel and the extreme CARE he put into drilling, reaming and rifling AND testing the barrel to be SURE it was up to his standard. The slug gun makers of the 19th c. made some fantastically accurate rifles (though very heavy as are most super accurate "moderns"). Until the 20th C the brass suppository guns simply could not match them in 40 rod competition. This was done by their attention to detail. This is true today.
I think experimenting with a gain is a great idea. Other than making a guide with a uniform gain I see not downside. But like most of what we do we are reinventing and rediscovering the past. Which is really what we do all the time. If I intended to shoot a traditional 2 caliber long picket I would try for an ending twist in the 30-36" range. If the caliber is 50 or over then 40-48 might be OK but if rifling a smaller bore it might be too slow. For RBs the twist could end at 40-48 for any caliber.  

Dan
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Offline L. Akers

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Re: Gain twist question
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2015, 12:02:30 AM »
Thank all of you for your inputs.  I actually asked this question for vindication for what I have already done.  I made my guide with linear acceleration because I thought that a logarithmic acceleration would try to twist the snot out of the bullet in the last few inches of the barrel and probably cause the bullet to strip.  I arbitrarily accelerated the twist at 1 inch per inch.  With a terminal twist of 1 in 20" and a 30" barrel, the twist at the breech is 1 in 50".  I haven't made the rifle barrel yet--other projects seem to  keep getting in the way, but I have used the terminal 10-12 inches of the guide to cut several target pistol barrels.  While a gain twist barrel may not be any more accurate than one with a uniform twist, I wonder if a gain twist can be shot more accurately--there's a difference here.  When a gun is fired, the instant the ball starts to move physics tells us that the gun will twist (torque).  In a rifle it MAY be inconsequential because of the mass of the gun and how it is mechanically held by 2 hands and the shoulder.  But in a pistol, with less mass, shorter sight radius and held by only one front leg, torque may be of some consequence.  I reasoned that anything that would mitigate the movement of the gun while the ball is still in the barrel should be taken advantage of.  A ball starting out at a 1-30 twist will have less torque than one starting at 1-20 (a prevalent twist for target pistols) therefore less movement.  Comments?

Offline shortbarrel

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Re: Gain twist question
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2015, 01:25:41 AM »
Gain twist works fine, if everything goes in from the breech end.

Offline little joe

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Re: Gain twist question
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2015, 12:50:11 PM »
Had a .50 .cal Bill large Hawken several years ago and it loaded from the muzzle and was an excellent shooter. Looking down the bore it started very slow and ended in one in thirty near the muzzle. Used a .018 patch 70 grs. of 3f and a .508 ball. A little tough to get started but as stated an excellent shooter.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Gain twist question
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2015, 05:01:35 PM »
Both Harry Pope and Nathan Whitmore used gain twists,The Pope was found to have a 1:16 to a 1;15.75and the Whitmore I don't know but he cut 12 grooves and outshot everything around and his guns were barred as unfair competition according to Major Ned Roberts.I helped Bill Large make his GT guide but don't recall the twists.Like McLemore barrels mentioned,it needs a scope to take full advantage.
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