Hawken metal finish

[rogerpjr]

I am close to finishing the assembly of a Bridger Hawken for my daughter that her now ex-husband started quite a few years ago. I've fixed most of his mistakes as best as I could and it's looking pretty decent. I'm kind of looking for opinions on the finish of the barrel and other metal parts. All my previous guns have been browned and have a heavier mat finish which I like. I was kind of thinking to do this one in a French grey, but I don't know how this will sit with the "Hawken Police". What kind of opinions do you guys have, grey or mat brown?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

All I can tell you is what I've seen and read - same story.  Kit Carson's rifle, now resting in the Masonic Lodge in Santa Fe, and a few pictures of which are included in Jim Gordon's great book(s) has pack hardened furniture.  The colours are still evident on the lock, breech plug and tang, and less so on the trigger guard and plate.  Many of the barrels that are not rusted brown, show that they were blued - either charcoal or rust blued - I don't know which. 

But I suggest you make it to suit yourself.  I've done lots browned - everything browned - and they look fine to me. 

[Chuck Burrows]

"The few Hawkens in good enough condition to see original barrel finish are blued. The blue is fairly dark. I like the color I get by doing a satin slow rust brown, followed by boiling the barrel in water to duplicate the color. When doing the rust blue, don't overpolish or you get too bright a color. It is not the deep translucent blue seen on European guns. The rib and thimbles were also blued.
The breech and tang were case hardened as well as the lock, butt plate, trigger guard, trigger bar,entry thimble and nose cap. Not the highly colored case of modern firearms but a mottled grey case that some of the early makers called forge casing. "

Per Don Stith

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Exactly!  thanks for digging up Don's great description Chuck!

[Boompa]

 Correct me if I'm wrong on this but the later Hawkens, built in the 1840s or later, were blued. The earlier guns we assume were rust browned but so few exist and none that still have finish, we can only speculate.  Kind of like the flint Hawken, we're pretty certain flints were built but can't prove it 'cause none survived.

[Don Stith]

The earliest one I'can vouch for was a J&S documented by the originall owners family to have been bought in 1838. It was blue.

[Bob Roller]

Correct me if I'm wrong on this but the later Hawkens, built in the 1840s or later, were blued. The earlier guns we assume were rust browned but so few exist and none that still have finish, we can only speculate.  Kind of like the flint Hawken, we're pretty certain flints were built but can't prove it 'cause none survived.

Wasn't ONE Hawken that was known to be a flintlock in the hands of a descendent of General Ashley?
It was supposedly a .69 caliber fullstock.

Bob Roller

[Don Stith]

The only 69 cal. Hawken I know of is one I built for myself.  I call it my "FRIENDS" rifle
  I inherited the barrel from Kieth Nuebauer
 Myron Carlson made the furniture for me. Bob Roller made the lock and triggers. Figured the bore was so extreme that no one but me would want it so didn't have to worry about being tempted to sell it.

[Dennis Glazener]

I call it my "FRIENDS" rifle

I suspect you named it that so you could loan it out to "special" friends. One or two shots and they brought it back
Dennis

[Bob Roller]

The only 69 cal. Hawken I know of is one I built for myself.  I call it my "FRIENDS" rifle
  I inherited the barrel from Kieth Nuebauer
 Myron Carlson made the furniture for me. Bob Roller made the lock and triggers. Figured the bore was so extreme that no one but me would want it so didn't have to worry about being tempted to sell it.

There was a full stock .69 caliber Hawken built for John Baird. I think it was named "Bodacious".
Bill Large barrel,original flint lock restored by Tom Dawson who also made the trigger guard and butt plate,
Roller double set triggers on an longer than usual bar,maybe 12". I don't remember who did the work to make it,MAYBE Andy Baker or Randy Cochran. After Baird's death,I don't know what happened to that rifle.
The last conversation I had with Baird indicated he wished he'd never got involved with Hawken lore but that could have been a result of onset dementia.
If anyone else has any info about this perhaps a posting here would help clarify.

Bob Roller

[Dphariss]

The only 69 cal. Hawken I know of is one I built for myself.  I call it my "FRIENDS" rifle
  I inherited the barrel from Kieth Nuebauer
 Myron Carlson made the furniture for me. Bob Roller made the lock and triggers. Figured the bore was so extreme that no one but me would want it so didn't have to worry about being tempted to sell it.

There was a full stock .69 caliber Hawken built for John Baird. I think it was named "Bodacious".
Bill Large barrel,original flint lock restored by Tom Dawson who also made the trigger guard and butt plate,
Roller double set triggers on an longer than usual bar,maybe 12". I don't remember who did the work to make it,MAYBE Andy Baker or Randy Cochran. After Baird's death,I don't know what happened to that rifle.
The last conversation I had with Baird indicated he wished he'd never got involved with Hawken lore but that could have been a result of onset dementia.
If anyone else has any info about this perhaps a posting here would help clarify.

Bob Roller

It was Baker. I shot the rifle a time or two. I think John shot 120 gr of FF IIRC. I have the Buckskin Report issue with the description in the book case but would have to search for the issue. I don't know where the rifle is now.
I suspect that if Ashley had a large bore rifle, as legend has it, it was intended to be used like a wall rifle off a keel boat. Given some of his experiences.
The last time John was in MT (that I recall) he told me he wished he had not sold the rights to the Hawken books.

Dan

[Daryl]

The only 69 cal. Hawken I know of is one I built for myself.  I call it my "FRIENDS" rifle
  I inherited the barrel from Kieth Nuebauer
 Myron Carlson made the furniture for me. Bob Roller made the lock and triggers. Figured the bore was so extreme that no one but me would want it so didn't have to worry about being tempted to sell it.

Don - I have a .69 Rifle that I also named. However the name of mine in not Friends or FRIENDS, but rather starts with a capital "B".

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

IIRC, Tom Curran's little Jaeger rifle is .69 calibre.  I don't consider that to be an outlandish ball size...made for heavy game and long distance accuracy.  Biggest I've built is .75 calibre around a Don Getz barrel..it's a moose killer!

[Boompa]

Correct me if I'm wrong on this but the later Hawkens, built in the 1840s or later, were blued. The earlier guns we assume were rust browned but so few exist and none that still have finish, we can only speculate.  Kind of like the flint Hawken, we're pretty certain flints were built but can't prove it 'cause none survived.

Wasn't ONE Hawken that was known to be a flintlock in the hands of a descendent of General Ashley?
It was supposedly a .69 caliber fullstock.

Bob Roller

 I found some information in Charles Hansen Jr's book "The Hawken Rifle, It's Place in History".  There are no surviving examples but records and writings from Hawken users of that time prove the existence of the flintlock Hawken.  References by General Ashley, Zenas Leonard, and others show that flints were used and the general transition to the caplock was slow with many sticking to their flint guns.

[Bob Roller]

Correct me if I'm wrong on this but the later Hawkens, built in the 1840s or later, were blued. The earlier guns we assume were rust browned but so few exist and none that still have finish, we can only speculate.  Kind of like the flint Hawken, we're pretty certain flints were built but can't prove it 'cause none survived.

Wasn't ONE Hawken that was known to be a flintlock in the hands of a descendent of General Ashley?
It was supposedly a .69 caliber fullstock.

Bob Roller

 I found some information in Charles Hansen Jr's book "The Hawken Rifle, It's Place in History".  There are no surviving examples but records and writings from Hawken users of that time prove the existence of the flintlock Hawken.  References by General Ashley, Zenas Leonard, and others show that flints were used and the general transition to the caplock was slow with many sticking to their flint guns.

The late and much missed Tom Dawson said he saw what was an apparent answer to a question posed to General Ashley regarding the fitness of the percussion system for military rifles in frontier service.
Ashley's response was that he had never seen or fired a percussion gun so that pretty well sums up what he had and used,a flintlock.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

The only 69 cal. Hawken I know of is one I built for myself.  I call it my "FRIENDS" rifle
  I inherited the barrel from Kieth Nuebauer
 Myron Carlson made the furniture for me. Bob Roller made the lock and triggers. Figured the bore was so extreme that no one but me would want it so didn't have to worry about being tempted to sell it.

There was a full stock .69 caliber Hawken built for John Baird. I think it was named "Bodacious".
Bill Large barrel,original flint lock restored by Tom Dawson who also made the trigger guard and butt plate,
Roller double set triggers on an longer than usual bar,maybe 12". I don't remember who did the work to make it,MAYBE Andy Baker or Randy Cochran. After Baird's death,I don't know what happened to that rifle.
The last conversation I had with Baird indicated he wished he'd never got involved with Hawken lore but that could have been a result of onset dementia.
If anyone else has any info about this perhaps a posting here would help clarify.

Bob Roller

It was Baker. I shot the rifle a time or two. I think John shot 120 gr of FF IIRC. I have the Buckskin Report issue with the description in the book case but would have to search for the issue. I don't know where the rifle is now.
I suspect that if Ashley had a large bore rifle, as legend has it, it was intended to be used like a wall rifle off a keel boat. Given some of his experiences.
The last time John was in MT (that I recall) he told me he wished he had not sold the rights to the Hawken books.

Dan

That was the load I shot in it,too. The idea was that everyone who had a hand in making anything at all for that rifle was to shoot it at least once.Mild recoil and handled well for me.

Bob Roller

[smylee grouch]

It was in the early 70s IIRC that I got to rub a coat of oil finnish on that gun.