shooting well

[ERH]

just looking for some feedback who thinks the way u hold the gun is as important as holding it still and on target with sights in line??holding it the same way each time ie where your face is on the comb and butt on the shoulder hand is on the fore arm. just wondering

[Jerry V Lape]

If you are holding the gun still with the sights aligned on the target it doesn't matter how you are holding it.  It could be over your shoulder with the sights aligned through  a mirror.   What does matter greatly, especially on flintlocks, is proper trigger control and follow through on the sight picture until the ball is fully launched.  I think trigger control matters even more than small movements and small variations in sight alignment.  No one holds a gun perfectly still for long with perfect sight alignment if his heart beats. 

If you are asking does an inconsistent method of hold produce significant variations in results - certainly not as much as inconsistent trigger and follow through. 

[California Kid]

I think consistency is the most important thing in rifle shooting. Especially with flintlocks.

[Daryl]

Aye, Laddy - consistancy, now thar's the jew-well for sartin, it be.

sorry

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Jerry,

Could you describe trigger control for us?

[Harnic]

Aye, Laddy - consistancy, now thar's the jew-well for sartin, it be.

sorry

Is it "speak like a pirate" week Daryl?

[George Sutton]

The way the gun is held is as important as aligning the sights. Muzzleloading is a  game of consistancy from the load to the way the gun is held. Change something on the firing line and you change something downrange at the target.

Watch olympic shooters shoot offhand. They use adjustable stocks, slings and palm rests. They lock themselves into the same position for each shot.

Centershot

[Roger Fisher]

Not quite answering your question; but skill with an offhand hold can be attained by some folks via practice and others are natural shooters.   I know more than a couple.  One in particular does not touch his rifle (to shoot it) between shoots but picks it up then and usually is top dog.   Some guys have it in their genes and of course some have it in their jeans!

[bluenoser]

Many moons ago I shot ISU pistol competitively – not with great success I might add.  I think some of what I learned there has helped my BP shooting.
Proper stance is very important.  I try to take the most rigid and stable stance I can.  For offhand, that generally means left elbow pointing to 6:00 against my body and right elbow pointing to 3:00.  I think that tends to lock the gun in from two directions.
Make sure you are pointed in the right direction and are holding the gun correctly.  Close your eyes, bring the gun to shoulder and open your eyes.  If you are pointing to the left or right, adjust your feet accordingly.  I won't get into proper foot position, but be consistent.  If the gun is canted or the front sight is high or low, adjust your grip, shoulder or cheek position to whatever extent possible.  Twisting your body to compensate will negatively affect your score.
Control your breathing.  Take a good breath and let it out.  Take another breath, let it half way out, hold your breath and complete the shot.  The longer you try to stay on target, the more you are likely to drift about.  Better to lower the gun, take a breath and try again.  Control that muzzle!  I once had a competitor discharge a 38 into the concrete floor directly between us.     As I recall, my Day's shooting went completely to pot after that!
Trigger control and follow through.  Gradually and smoothly increase pressure on the trigger with the tip of your finger.  You should not know exactly when the gun will go off.  After the shot, you should still be on target – that's follow through.
And finally, go through the same routine each time – that's consistency.

As an interesting side note, the better shots I have competed against avoided caffeinated products like the plague.

Just my opinion
Now, if I could just remember some of that when I am on the line. 
Laurie

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Trigger control and follow through.  Gradually and smoothly increase pressure on the trigger with the tip of your finger.  You should not know exactly when the gun will go off.  After the shot, you should still be on target – that's follow through.
And finally, go through the same routine each time – that's consistency.

Some of the old timers at my local rifle & pistol club say they time their shot to account for their wobble.  In other words, nobody can hold perfectly rock solid, so they watch the sight jump up and down or sideway or whatever.  Then fire then the sight is at the same point in the cycle. 

If that is the case how can you "not know exactly when the gun will go off?"

[SCLoyalist]

Dry fire practice at home is a great way to keep your arm , shoulder and trigger finger muscles  used to the weight and feel of the rifle (or pistol, for that matter).    If you're shooting a gun with a single trigger, a wedge of wood in place of the flint, several rubber faucet washers to protect the nipple, or a wedge of rubber between hammer and frame of a revolver will allow the hammer to fall without dinging up the gun.    When the practice shot does break, with practice, you won't see any wobble or jump in the sight picture.  

The point made by an earlier response about consistent stance and posture is something that can (and should)  be practiced at home as part of your dry-firing drill, too.  Pick out a spot on the wall or sight through a window at something in the back yard (taking care not to alarm the neighbors).

I've found I have best results with my rifle shooting if I hold the gun lightly to my shoulder - left hand supports the weight, right hand rests very lightly on the wrist and pulls the trigger.   Seems to eliminate barrel motion  and  changes in front/rear sight alignment due to muscle tremors.   Don Davis's book 'Shooting and Winning with the Champs' says something pretty similar.   It works great for 36 and 40 cal, and 54 with a wide buttplate.  I expect I'd get a pretty bad thump with a narrow buttplate like I did when I let a guy talk me into shooting his 'elk gun' with 175 grains 2F under a 400 gr Maxi.

Good Luck

SCL

[Pete G.]

If you are haphazard in your hold the rifle will recoil differently with every shot. Since the ball is still in the barrel while the gun is recoiling, an inconsistent recoil will result in an inconsistent point of impact with every shot.

[Standing Bear]

"Some of the old timers at my local rifle & pistol club say they time their shot to account for their wobble.  In other words, nobody can hold perfectly rock solid, so they watch the sight jump up and down or sideway or whatever.  Then fire then the sight is at the same point in the cycle. 

If that is the case how can you "not know exactly when the gun will go off?"
[/quote]

No one can hold perfectly still off hand.  What you are describing above we call ambushing the target.  Proper position as covered before and a consistent proper position will allow the shooter to observe the pattern the front sight makes on the target during your own wobble.  Mine is/was a kind horizontal figure 8 or infinity symbol with the ends bowed upward.  A few seconds into the hold the sight pattern shrinks and the sight seems almost still.  The gun should go off during this period.

Sight picture, trigger control, follow through.

TC

[wmrike]

A lot of good points are being made here.  If we step aside a bit and look at two other disciplines, smallbore and air rifle, we see that these shooters are dealing with much the same problem as muzzleloaders - slow bullet exit.  Hold and, especially, trigger control, are paramount.  As regards trigger control, there is a chart out there somewhere that diagnoses bullet impact in terms of hold (grip), anticipation of let-off, and finger movement on the trigger.  Variations in each will push the line of sight(and bullet impact) this way or that.

Compared to smallbore/air rifle, highpower and muzzleloaders are slightly different beasts in that they generate more recoil.  Highpower shooting, even well executed, is often referred to as a controlled flinch, and I think muzzleloaders fall in the same catagory.  This points to the need for some dry firing, as SCL suggested, in order to get a feel for good sight picture and learn smooth trigger pull without the risk of recoil.  Double set triggers are great for this.

[Don Getz]

I can only relate to this subject as I have found in shooting my chunk gun.   While my gun is only about 16 pounds, not
really that heavy when you look at all the guns on the line.   I found that you must grip the gun well in order to shoot well.  You cannot merely lay down and place the butt on your shoulder and then reach around and touch that set trigger.
This would be a good question to put to the Bevel Brothers for their column in Muzzle Blasts........Don

[Daryl]

Don hits a very important aspect of shooting - that of pulling the gun in consistantly each time.  The act of conciously gripping the gun does this, but, don't hold too long as the tremmors will get you.
Same goes for rest shooting.
Ambushing the target or not, as in taking the shot as the sights are coming in on it is best accomplised with set triggers - so the shot goes exactly when you want it to - a must, for accuracy shooting in letting the shot go at the right moment.  The other school of thought, not knowing when the trigger breaks is a bit old-school, I think. Knowing exactly when the shot goes off produces better results for me in any position.  Shooting off a rest makes no difference, but shooting offhand well requires an exeptional single non-set trigger, or a set trigger. Have rifles with both.

[The other DWS]

I think that it'd help to clarify what shooting you are talking with to start with.  a basic offhand shot at a stationary target is different form the various forms of "rest-shooting", and all of them from shooting at a moving target.

In any case doing it the same way each time is pretty critical to putting the hole in the target in the same place with each shot --within the arms mechanical ability.    That means the way you hold the gun while getting the sight picture, the way you pull the trigger and the way you handle it as and after it goes off.
  I believe that the latter is especially important since with long rifles you have the bullet in the bore for a significantly longer time that you do with shorter barrels and higher velocities---so you have a whole lot more time to screw up the shot----AFTER you've tripped the trigger.  We have to learn to cope with lock and ignition time, our physiological reaction to the pan-flash, as well as recoil ; all while the bullet is still in the barrel and under our control.

as a bit of illustration:   I shoot a lot of ASSRA single shot competition---mostly with 22 rf. I have shot in the 200 yd bench-rest for a fair number of years. this involves heavy guns, complex bench-rests, high-power sights, and the very highest most consistent match ammo I can afford.
A few years ago I bit the bullet and started shooting in the offhand matches.  I'd never shot offhand much previously and had no training in that part of the sport. I soon learned that shooter-induced angle of dispersion was far greater that that innate in the high priced match ammo I was using in my bench gun----I was wasting money on it.  When I went to good (rather than best) but higher velocity ammo my 100 and 50 yard offhand scores improved---simply because the bullet was out of the barrel a bit sooner--giving me less chance to steer it wrong.

[Daryl]

Follow-through - thou art a charm.

[The other DWS]

I'm pretty well convinced that the "not-knowing-when-the-shot-will-break"  is actually more of an effect than a cause.  We even see an aspect of it in archery.

  I believe that when a shooter is really focussed in on his target and sight picture (and yes, even traditional archers have one--even the so-called instinctive shooter) a lot of the other aspects are functioning on a sub or semi-conscious level and the trigger is tripped or the arrow released without deliberate conscious thought/action when all the other complex inputs say it is right.  so you don't "know" when the shot actually broke.

  this is pretty much a product of well-trained and well-practiced shooting.  Instructors/advisors who use this are simply saying--"Get focussed on your target and sights, and with practice--your trigger pull will become an automatic response"

[hanshi]

You make a good point, DWS.  I've taken many (target and game) "snap" shots where no "snap" was involved, only just a "knowing" what the rifle would do.  It's like being "in the zone".  The rifle comes up and seems to fire of it's own volition.  I think this can only be done-with any frequency- with a gun that fits the shooter well.  In this case you know just when the gun will fire-it will be on target at that point-yet, as you say, it is so automatic you are truly unaware of WHEN the arm fires.

[bluenoser]

Trigger control and follow through.  Gradually and smoothly increase pressure on the trigger with the tip of your finger.  You should not know exactly when the gun will go off.  After the shot, you should still be on target – that's follow through.
And finally, go through the same routine each time – that's consistency.

Some of the old timers at my local rifle & pistol club say they time their shot to account for their wobble.  In other words, nobody can hold perfectly rock solid, so they watch the sight jump up and down or sideway or whatever.  Then fire then the sight is at the same point in the cycle. 

If that is the case how can you "not know exactly when the gun will go off?"

Well, if nothing else, I am definitely old school.  However, in this case, I think the rationale still applies.

The operative word is “exactly”.  If one concentrates on making the trigger break at some exact instant, they are likely to tense up and/or jerk the trigger to some degree.  There is a good chance the result will be a flier – typically low and to the right for me.

With practice, we develop a feel for our trigger and as we increase pressure instinctively know approximately when it will break.  That’s the reason for using the most sensitive part of the finger – the tip.  By “approximate” I mean within fractions of a second.  I think those old timers knew the feel of their triggers and started their squeeze as the sight picture drifted toward the center of their wobble with the intent of let-off as it crossed the center.  I don’t think they pulled the trigger when the sight picture was centered.

I think the other DWS summed it up very well in the last paragraph of his last post

Laurie

[satwel]

As California Kid said, consistency is the name of the game. Anything that decreases variability is good. Developing a hold that you can reproduce shot after shot is one key.