Frizzen Confusion

[M. E. Pering]

I am new to the group, so forgive me if I sound obtuse or confusing.

I am working on a way to make my own locks.  This would also include the frizzen.  I have heard references to forge-welding a sheet of steel to a piece of wrought iron, and then hardening the piece.  But I have also heard of brazing a piece of steel to the iron, which makes no sense to me.  At brazing temps, the hardness of the steel would be lost, and yet if you try to harden it thereafter, the join would be compromised, and the two metals would likely separate.  I know today I could probably make a frizzen out of 1095 and quench it carefully and have a satisfactory battery, but I am not convinced brazing in this manner could work at all, and give a decent spark.
Perhaps the brazing and hardening were done in one process, maybe held together in a way I am not aware of?  Or was there a more solid process of holding them together in the brazing process, like a rivet?  Borax would have certainly be held within the joint until the solder applied, but I have seen no originals, so cannot guess at it.  Any ideas?

Matt

[bob in the woods]

I've not had much experience with this, having only done it once. I just used solder. So far it's held just fine.

[hammer]

Search for the topic 'Steeling a frizzen' in Gun Building.   Lots there, including my own contribution.

[Hungry Horse]

I have half soled frizzens by soldering a piece of steel to the frizzen, and by simply riveting a piece of steel to the frizzen face. I have not seen any frizzens faced by brazing, or forge welding. I think the latter methods would require heating the carbon steel too hot, and depleting the carbon from the steel.

 Hungry Horse

[L. Akers]

I use a piece of saw blade from an old wood saw soldered on with 50-50 lead-tin solder to sole frizzens.  The soldering temp doesn't get high enough to ruin the temper of the steel.  I get sparks that bounce out of the pan and roll around on the floor.  Brownell's low-temp Force 44 solder will work well also.

[Levy]

I do remember working on a brass barreled blunderbuss that was recovered from an early 1700's slaver wreck (Henrietta Marie) that had the frizzen half-soled by brazing.  It also had a unique safety dog that engaged the bottom of the cock on the outside of the plate.

James Levy

[Acer Saccharum]

If you're making your own frizzens from scratch, use mild steel. Caseharden the frizzens in a charcoal pack. Temper after hardening.

[jerrywh]

The originals were made out of wrought iron and case hardened. I have made them out of mild steel and case hardened them and made them out of 1095 and still case hardened them. I have had the best success by making them out of 1095 or even 1075 and then case hardening them.
  You can braze the steel face on one with copper or pure silver and then harden.
 Pure silver melts at 1763° f. that is 200° f above quenching temp for 1095. Copper melts over 1800°f.  I do some silver soldering at only 100° below the melting point of the base metal. It takes about an hour or two of practice.

[Mark Elliott]

I will throw my 2 cent in here.   I have 1/4" 1095 just for forging frizzens.   Then you don't need to worry about wearing through the case.   

[JCKelly]

Agree with the $0.02

Solder does not hurt anything.

Brazing in the old days was just that, joining with molten brass-stuff or copper. This is done at a rather high heat, and the Steel can be hardened by quenching from brazing (used to do this at Black & Decker, ca. 1963), or one might reheat. Leaving aside modern "silver solder" some brass brazing stuff will flow at around 1700 - 1800F, roughly. Copper melts at 1981F, modern copper brazing process temperature is 2050F. I have an old Italian wheel lock (just the lock, sadly) with a bolster copper brazed to the interior of the lockplate)

[rich pierce]

Since pack case hardened frizzens that started out as mild steel work so well, I wonder if half soling a frizzens with a grazed on steel face was primarily done on frizzens that were badly worn or corroded so that when ground back to smooth, they were thin.

[coutios]

   Isn't there one of the House videos that demo the brazing of a piece of file to the frizzen via the forge?


Dave 

[Rolf]

   Isn't there one of the House videos that demo the brazing of a piece of file to the frizzen via the forge?


Dave 

Gun Builders companion volume two, by Frank House. He uses brass to braze a half sole to a frizzen.

Best regards
Rolf

[JCKelly]

Rich P - pack carburized mild steel may be fine.

In my opinion it was impractical for an 18th century lock maker to pack harden a WROUGHT IRON frizzen to any useful depth. The carbon reacts with iron oxide in the slag, of which wrought iron has a good 3%, to form carbon monoxide. This raises blisters on the surface of the carburized iron.

This was a common way of making steel back then. Pack a bunch of wrought iron skelps in a large box, heat for a day (maybe a week, disremember) in charcoal. The product was known as "blister steel" and required forging to hammer down those blisters. Not the thing you want to do to a frizzen.


Ad from The Democratic Expounder Marshall, Michigan February 21, 1851

[gunmaker]

look at runastavs post on Kongsberg musket, he half soles his frizzen.....

[jerrywh]

 Just to verify what Kelly said about a copper brazed lock part, That is where I got the idea for copper brazing. I was once working on an antique lock and notices that the bolster was copper brazed on the plate. That was a flintlock. 
 I have also worked on locks where the springs were made from blister steel.

[rich pierce]

Good info, JC Kelly.  Do you think that frizzens on European locks made for the trade were forged of blister steel versus wrought iron?  Or what do you think was common practice among lock makers of the time?  Seems that most of the original European flintlocks I've seen have frizzens that have not been half-soled.  I'm not against it, know it works, but think it may have been relatively uncommon on first work.  Don't see half soling on Brown Besses, Charlevilles, fusils de trait, NW guns, most Euro jaegers or fowling pieces.

[doug]

I have seen a number of locks that have been resoled by brazing a piece of steel onto the original frizzen.  You can see the brass colour between the two layers.  I think if I were going to do that, I would probably put one or two small iron pins through the two pieces to keep them from sliding apart when the braze was molten.  I would also be holding the frizzen in the vice and pour water over the striking face as soon as the braze or silver solder had flowed through the entire joint

cheers Doug

[James Wilson Everett]

Another way to do this job is to rivet the plate to the frizzen.  This process is historically correct, and it is a bit easier to do, in my opinion.  These are photos of a gunlock with a riveted on plate.  As the finished frizzen is quenched, the plate tends to pull away very slightly leaving a tiny gap.  I think that you can see this.  The rivets are soft iron or steel.

Jim

[rich pierce]

Nice.  How does it spark, Jim?

[Daryl]

Whether you wear through the case or not depends on how much you shoot.

One of the lads we shoot with on Sundays, noted yesterday that he was only 200 rounds short of firing his 50,000th BP shot. Yes - he keeps track of all the shots he's ever fired, even though he's fairly new to the sport. Taylor has re-ground the frizzens on some of his guns several times, as well as making new frizzens for them.

[JCKelly]

In my observation, civilian weapons often have evidence of the steel being brazed to the (wrought iron) body of the frizzen. I do not see this on a pair of Wogdon coat pistols, nor on a brass barreled "I RICHARDS" pistol

Military weapons, specifically one third model Brown Bess, one European contract Marine & Militia Brown Bess, one Paget British carbine, a Hall rifle, a Massachusetts musket dated 1813 and one Harper's Ferry M1795 dated 1812 all appear to have no braze line. I have a few more, but no original flint military guns with braze line.  After forge welding the steel to the frizzen the rough forging would have been filed to shape then heat treated. I do not know whether or not that heat treat included a light case hardening. Personally I would, so the tail bearing on the feather spring would not wear out.

Somewhere, somewhere I recall a comment by a British officer, ca. Napoleon, that the French muskets "are better steeled than ours".

[M. E. Pering]

Thanks to everyone for all the great suggestions.  This should be enough to be able to start doing some experimentation.  I think I will start with just 1095, and see if I can't quench it in such a manner as to make the face very hard, while leaving the body somewhat more resilient. 
Thanks again to all.

Matt

[Acer Saccharum]

If you have oxy-acetylene, run the torch acetylene rich flame over the frizzen face for five or ten minutes before quenching. This enriches the carbon content in the steel.