Author Topic: best way to correct internal lock geometry  (Read 8268 times)

Offline L. Akers

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best way to correct internal lock geometry
« on: January 29, 2016, 08:52:53 PM »
I was recently looking for a lock for a project and chose one by a very respected maker for its style.  However, upon cycling the lock I found it took a horrendous amount of pressure to trip the sear.  I looked at a 2nd lock (same maker) and it was the same.  Altogether I looked at 6 different locks (same maker, different styles also) and all except two exhibited a very hard sear release.  Those two  locks I could not get the sear to release no matter how hard I pushed. I got out my little gauge that I made for the purpose and found the angle formed by the tumbler axis, full cock notch and sear screw to be greater than 90 degrees.  I chose a lock by a different maker for my project.  I sent an e-mail to the first maker telling what I had found.  I received a reply apologizing for my trouble and they said that they would check into it but for liability reasons the locks are drilled "slightly" wrong on purpose and that I could just file the tumbler notch to lighten the pull.  IMO,  WRONG ANSWER!!!!
Since I will probably want to use this makers locks on future projects I have come up with a couple of ways to correct the geometry.  The first thing I thought of was to plug the holes in the bridle and plate and re-drill.  The second (the one I am leaning toward) would be to lengthen the nose of the sear as there is usually enough overtravel available to do this and would only require 20-30 thou extension.  Thoughts?

ddoyle

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2016, 09:07:26 PM »

re drilled holes don't need to be heat treated so that saves alot of steps.

 

Offline smart dog

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2016, 11:36:39 PM »
Hi,
Without a photo it is hard to tell what is wrong.  However, on locks with too heavy release, simply stoning the full cock notch usually is all you need to do.  The plane of the notch should lie on a straight line with a line going through the center of the tumbler pivot.  I usually do not do that until the lock is installed on the gun and I tested the actual trigger pull.  I have not yet ever encountered a Chambers, L&R, or Davis lock that had a heavy pull that could not be easily adjusted by stoning the notch.

dave
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2016, 01:17:52 AM »
100 % Dave!
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2016, 02:08:04 AM »
Got a Caywood lock eh? ;D
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Offline L. Akers

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2016, 04:00:06 AM »
Smart Dog: The problem is the sear screw hole is drilled in the wrong place.

Mike: The lock is a product of a top-line maker.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2016, 04:13:12 AM »
Smart Dog: The problem is the sear screw hole is drilled in the wrong place.

Mike: The lock is a product of a top-line maker.
Oh, sorry.  thought Caywood qualified as a top-line maker... ;)
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline smart dog

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2016, 04:17:34 AM »
Hi,
Can we see a picture?

dave
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Offline L. Akers

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2016, 06:39:36 AM »

  The plane of the notch should lie on a straight line with a line going through the center of the tumbler pivot.

Dave, that plane was ok. The center of the sear screw should be on a line which is 90 degrees from the tumbler pivot/full cock notch line, measured at full cock.  It was greater than 90 degrees which causes the sear nose/notch join to be cammed upward and the sear nose actually has to move the hammer rearward in order to be released.  As I stated, two of the locks could not be released. What the maker suggested was to change the angle of the notch.   And I'm sorry--no pictures, I didn't buy that lock. 

Online bob in the woods

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2016, 06:56:25 AM »
Any of the" top lock makers"  that I have bought from would simply replace the lock. I'm certain of that.  In my years of building, mainly as a hobby, I've used over 35 flintlocks from Chambers, and Davis and have never had a lock with the problems you're describing. I always stone and polish them , but expect to do that.  If I understand what you're saying correctly, it would concern me to have to change the angles of engagement as suggested. If the maker can't get it right, maybe you should use a different lock  :-\  ??

Offline smart dog

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2016, 04:46:21 PM »
Hi,
I understand the problem and have actually dealt with that problem on several India-made musket locks that I fixed.  The angle was so bad that the sear had to push the tumbler back to release.  It would be very difficult to change the sear hole position on the bridle unless it has enough extra metal around the hole to change its position.  Most bridles have little extra metal around the sear screw hole.  You might have to heat and bend that lobe of the bridle upward and then reharden and temper it. That is probably what I would do if I had to change the position of the sear. Then I would slightly countersink both sides of the sear hole in the lock plate, insert threaded rod that protrudes a little from both sides, peen over the ends into the counter sinks, then heat both mushroomed ends of the rod with a welder to tack the rod permanently in place.  Then drill and tap a new hole.  However, in the cases of the locks I fixed, I just reshaped the full cock notch with a coarse stone to eliminate the putative "lip" that existed because the sear engaged from too low an angle. I also stoned the nose of the sear a little. That solved the problem and it actually involved very little stoning despite that at first it appeared a lot of reshaping would be necessary.  

dave

dave
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 04:52:27 PM by smart dog »
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Offline M. E. Pering

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2016, 10:34:43 AM »
I have never had to deal with this problem with a lock, but I have had to when rebuilding farming machinery.  My solution was to silver solder in a screw to act as a plug.  Then I re-drilled the hole, and re-tapped it.  45% silver solder is extremely tough, and if you get a good joint fill, it shouldn't be a problem. You can then re -drill and re-tap the hole.  I then use my lathe to make a new screw, and all is good.

   But it doesn't take a lathe to do this... A lock screw is short and easily fabricated from cold-rolled steel you can get at most hardware stores.  You can mount it in a drill, and cut it down with a file as it spins.  When you get close, stop and check your work with calipers.  This is the easy part.

Now for the hard part... You have to know that your hole is straight and parallel to the face of the lock.  Unless you have a well set up drill press, or a mill, this is almost impossible to do.  I have had at least one lock that was not drilled at 90x90.  My solution in that case, and it was the sear screw, was to trim the toe of the sear, the part that was closest to the plate.   I would see if this might correct the problem first, before re-drilling.  It is easier to take a slight touch on the grinder, rather than the filling of the old hole and all I said above.  As 20th and 21st century people, we tend to try for perfection, and I know I am certainly a victim of this myself.  But the original smiths were much less concerned with perfection.  They were concerned that they sold guns.  Today, we wouldn't sell a gun that wasn't close to perfect, and that is as it should be.  I think the old makers would be proud of us for trying to get it perfect.  Good luck with it.  :)

Matt

Offline Dale Halterman

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2016, 03:44:57 AM »
Maybe I am missing something, but what is wrong with stoning the sear notch so it is perpendicular to a line connecting to notch to the sear pivot if the angle is more than 90 deg?

Dale H

Offline Dphariss

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2016, 05:41:36 AM »
Generally nothing. Especially if its purposely machined with a "hook" or with the wrong angle and often the notch and sear nose angle are wrong. They almost all need to be stoned anyway since there is a liability problem for the maker if they are too light and someone gets shot.
Why the maker would drill the hole in the wrong place when its easier just to change the notch angle I have no idea.
Dan
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Offline L. Akers

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2016, 06:50:20 PM »
Looks like the unanimous advice is to plug and re-drill.  Thanks for all y'alls input.

Internal lock geometry is all about mechanics.  A 90 degree angle of engagement through the pivot points gives the lightest SAFE sear release.  More than 90 and the sear release is heavy, less than 90 and it is too light--read that UN-safe.

I agree with you, Dan, makers should get the geometry right and fudge some rake in the sear angle.  That way it would be easily correctable by stoning.  By the way, I always stone the notch and sear nose--at the CORRECT angles for the smoothest sear release.  I guess I could stick to kits.

ddoyle

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2016, 07:11:12 PM »
Why would makers not just use the precedent of historic geometry. I am sure that the negligible cumulative record of death related to accidental discharge in weapons fitted with locks made with holes in the 'right' place would support the use of 'proper' geometry.

Heck there are ways to make locks safer, weld the sear to the tumbler. Weld the sear pivot to the screw. Subject the works to a radio-graph and implement a yearly inspection regime ;D

Y'all realize that as soon as a corporate lawyer/insurance adjuster reads about the concept of stoning engagements all new locks are gonna come with a deeply stamped message on the lock plate warning against the alteration of any parts. Or wait, now as underwriter I think I'd feel better if all those pesky user serviceable screws  were replaced with hardened rivets. ;)

sad sad sad


Offline Dale Halterman

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2016, 04:05:07 PM »
Quote
Internal lock geometry is all about mechanics.  A 90 degree angle of engagement through the pivot points gives the lightest SAFE sear release.  More than 90 and the sear release is heavy, less than 90 and it is too light--read that UN-safe.

Could you please elaborate? I still don't see how a few degrees off of 90 can be that critical as long as the sear notch is stoned perpendicular to a line connecting to notch to the sear pivot. I agree that if the notch is stoned so its face is on a straight line going through the center of the tumbler pivot it will behave as you describe.

Dale H

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2016, 05:15:37 PM »
The sear should hold with the sear spring removed. The sear should not pop out of engagement when the spring pressure is off. If it won't hold, you've got a negative angle on the full cock notch.

Take the main spring out, put the lock into full cock. Place an indicator on or near the hammer. (this could be a taped on piece of card stock, shim stock, or dial indicator.) Point is, if the hammer moves, you will see the gap change.

Now, while watching the gap, slowly pull the trigger. If the gap increases during the pull, you've got a positive angle on the sear notch.

Ideal situation: lock holds at full cock without the sear spring in place...AND...the hammer does not creep backwards during let-off.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 05:23:07 PM by Acer Saccharum »
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Offline L. Akers

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2016, 06:35:45 PM »
Ideal situation: lock holds at full cock without the sear spring in place...AND...the hammer does not creep backwards during let-off.

 OR forward.

Offline Dale Halterman

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2016, 07:24:06 PM »
The sear should hold with the sear spring removed. The sear should not pop out of engagement when the spring pressure is off. If it won't hold, you've got a negative angle on the full cock notch.

Take the main spring out, put the lock into full cock. Place an indicator on or near the hammer. (this could be a taped on piece of card stock, shim stock, or dial indicator.) Point is, if the hammer moves, you will see the gap change.

Now, while watching the gap, slowly pull the trigger. If the gap increases during the pull, you've got a positive angle on the sear notch.

Ideal situation: lock holds at full cock without the sear spring in place...AND...the hammer does not creep backwards during let-off.

Agreed. But isn't this determined by the relationship between the notch angle and the sear pivot and not the tumbler axis?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 09:07:48 PM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline L. Akers

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2016, 09:02:06 PM »
Dale,  let's see if I can either muddy the water some more or clear it up.  As the sear bar is raised the nose of the sear describes an arc.  The tumbler circumference  is also describing an arc as it rotates.  For the lightest, SAFE let-off the sear/tumbler engagement must be at respective tangents to these arcs.  The only point where these tangents coincide is at 90 deg with the respective  tangents passing through the pivot points.  If the included angle is less than 90 deg the mainspring is trying to cam the sear nose down out of engagement.  At an angle greater than 90 deg the mainspring will cam the engagement upward which results in a hard trigger pull.  The angle of the notch has no affect on these actions.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2016, 10:08:17 PM »
Quote
Internal lock geometry is all about mechanics.  A 90 degree angle of engagement through the pivot points gives the lightest SAFE sear release.  More than 90 and the sear release is heavy, less than 90 and it is too light--read that UN-safe.

Could you please elaborate? I still don't see how a few degrees off of 90 can be that critical as long as the sear notch is stoned perpendicular to a line connecting to notch to the sear pivot. I agree that if the notch is stoned so its face is on a straight line going through the center of the tumbler pivot it will behave as you describe.

Dale H

Has Anyone mentioned the DEPTH of the full cock notch? That has a lot to so with final let off.  If a set trigger is used then it's a non problem.

Bob Roller
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 05:55:05 PM by Ky-Flinter »

ddoyle

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2016, 03:32:34 AM »
Quote
Dale,  let's see if I can either muddy the water some more or clear it up.  As the sear bar is raised the nose of the sear describes an arc.  The tumbler circumference  is also describing an arc as it rotates.  For the lightest, SAFE let-off the sear/tumbler engagement must be at respective tangents to these arcs.  The only point where these tangents coincide is at 90 deg with the respective  tangents passing through the pivot points.  If the included angle is less than 90 deg the mainspring is trying to cam the sear nose down out of engagement.  At an angle greater than 90 deg the mainspring will cam the engagement upward which results in a hard trigger pull.  The angle of the notch has no affect on these actions.

Thanks for taking the time to type this.

Offline Dale Halterman

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2016, 03:37:41 PM »
Thank you for posting. However, I still think the angle of the notch relative to the sear pivot is more important. Maybe someday we will get to sit down with a paper a pencil and go over it together.

Thanks again.

Dale H

Offline L. Akers

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Re: best way to correct internal lock geometry
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2016, 05:06:15 PM »
Dale,  if you have access to Burrard's book The Modern Shotgun, he has most of a chapter in volume 1 explaining the whys and wherefores of lock geometry.