Author Topic: Drum threading?  (Read 3890 times)

Offline Shreckmeister

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Drum threading?
« on: April 04, 2016, 09:36:34 PM »
Is a finer thread or coarser thread recommended for putting a new drum in a 19th century longrifle barrel?
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Offline okawbow

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Re: Drum threading?
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2016, 09:58:58 PM »
I recently made and installed a drum on a half stock .45 cal. Rifle. It has a 1" barrel.

I made the drum threads 3/8" fine thread. That size, along with the shallower fine threads, allowed me to drill the flash hole larger than I could have in a drum with a 5/16" thread, and or coarse threads.

I think it is important to use a quality tap for the threaded hole on the barrel. The tap hole drill should be at the smaller end of the range, to allow deeper threads. The external threads on the drum should also be as good fit as possible as well.

A well fit drum should be strong and safe if done correctly.
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Online FDR

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Re: Drum threading?
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2016, 01:12:57 AM »
The recommended tap drill from the charts will produce a 75% thread. If you drop down to the next smaller size drill (it might be a letter size) you can increase the thread engagement to 80% or greater.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 01:14:37 AM by FDR »

Offline JTR

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Re: Drum threading?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2016, 02:28:25 AM »
Shreck,
If you want it most likely as original, a course thread would be appropriate.
John
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 02:39:23 AM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline okieboy

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Re: Drum threading?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2016, 04:11:15 AM »
 A fine thread has better strength. When selecting your tap, go to an industrial supply and look at the different H levels that a tap is offered in. Each H level represents a .0005" increase in thread size (pitch diameter) , so an H3 cuts a larger thread than an H2, an H2 cuts a larger thread than an H1, etcetera.
Okieboy

DFHicks

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Re: Drum threading?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2016, 06:28:57 PM »
okieboy _ good information but help me with it.  Is a H3 better than H1 or the other way around?  Obviously I have no machinist background.
Thanks,
Greg

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Drum threading?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2016, 07:20:32 PM »
 The answer has to do with the barrel wall thickness. Because of the thin wall a fine thread is generally better. Think, What kind of threads does a touch hole liner have? Why?
 Never do anything just because some old 18th century rifle was that way.  A lot of those old guns were poorly made. They had to use what they had on hand. Many people idolize those old gun makers but they were just people not unlike we are. Some were good and some were lousy and everything in between. That's reality.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 07:26:04 PM by jerrywh »
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Offline JTR

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Re: Drum threading?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2016, 11:00:24 PM »
I guess I should have asked if he was going to shoot a 19th century barrel, or not? If your going to do it for restorations sake, say on your J Mills rifle, I'd use a course thread like the originals, and an original nipple.
John
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 11:20:23 PM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline okieboy

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Re: Drum threading?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2016, 11:41:12 PM »
 Greg, different H numbers don't make a thread better or worse per se, they make the thread size larger or smaller. So, an H3 tap will make a "looser" thread and an H1 tap will make a "tighter" thread. This is compounded by the size of the mating male thread. Most people are not going to know the exact size (pitch diameter) of the male thread, because they would need a thread pitch micrometer, which is somewhat expensive and (for an amateur) rather fussy to properly use. Pitch diameter is basicly the distance between the middle of the two theoretically perfect V's on opposite sides of the thread. Google an image of pitch diameter and it will be easier to understand than a verbal explanation.
 For most of our applications tighter is better up to a point. So what does the amateur without a thread pitch micrometer do? This amateur for example has 3/8-24 taps in H3, H2, H1 and actually H0. I can tap test threads in pieces of similar steel and then try the fit with the male thread, in this case a drum.
 It is important to understand that changing tap drill sizes changes the percentage of thread or how close to a full height thread you generate, but does NOT change the size (pitch diameter) of the thread. Using a small enough tap drill can often make a thread feel tight, when in fact the tight feeling is a root crest interference between the threads.
 I fear that I may be making this seem over complicated, but reading an explanation or two of thread design and  thread fits will pay you benefits.
 Clearer or cloudier? 
Okieboy

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Drum threading?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2016, 11:45:18 PM »
Quote
Fine threaded bolts are stronger than the corresponding coarse threaded bolts of the same hardness. This is in both tension and shear due to the fine threaded bolts having a slightly larger tensile stress area and minor diameter.

A fine thread resists loosening from vibration better because the angle of the thread pitch is lower.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 12:53:23 AM by Acer Saccharum »
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Drum threading?
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2016, 12:45:37 AM »
I always thought a coarse thread was stronger than a fine thread, because there is more volume of metal engaged?

A fine thread resists loosening from vibration better because the angle of the thread pitch is lower.

I was always told fine threads were stronger because more fastener remains under the threads.  

Isn't the volume of metal engaged a function of the depth of threads actually engaged, coarse or fine?  

Which in the case of a fixed depth as here, fine threads offer more linear engagement-or more threads and is that enough to offset the deeper engagement of the coarse?

-
Where one is designing and can vary depth of engagement-after sufficient engagement (of threads/or contact) the strength of the fastener becomes the weakest point, which takes us back to a shallower thread leaving more fastener at the core.

Sorry I don't have formal engineering education...I could be using improper terminology and logic, but it is for those reasons that I'll tend toward fine threads every time on small stuff.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 12:53:07 AM by WadePatton »
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Drum threading?
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2016, 12:53:46 AM »
Wade, fine threads are stronger!

Coarse threads are better for some manufacturing, less likely to crossthread in rapid assembly operations.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 12:55:35 AM by Acer Saccharum »
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DFHicks

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Re: Drum threading?
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2016, 04:03:56 AM »
okieboy,
Thanks for the additional information.  I was tempted to add some humor by responding _ "Huh???".  However you made a good effort to explain the issue and I didn't want to sound flippant.  From my stand point would FDR's recommendation to go the the next smallest size below the recommended drill bit be a good practical guideline?
Thanks to everyone.
Greg

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Drum threading?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2016, 05:19:56 AM »
okieboy,
Thanks for the additional information.  I was tempted to add some humor by responding _ "Huh???".  However you made a good effort to explain the issue and I didn't want to sound flippant.  From my stand point would FDR's recommendation to go the the next smallest size below the recommended drill bit be a good practical guideline?
Thanks to everyone.
Greg

I have always used one drill size tighter by .015 or 1/64 of an inch on the few drums
that I've installed in a NEW barrel. Also countersink the hole the depth of ONE thread
as that will make the tap easier to start. Also Tapmatic or other threading fluid or if
none is available,pack the flutes in the tap wit grease to pick up the shavings.

Bob Roller