Rifle build in Fowler style?

[RFindley]

I am truly a newbie both to flintlock gunsmithing and this forum but after reading quite a few of the responses it is obvious that this is the place to ask my questions.

I am planning a rifle using a Jim Chambers early Lancaster stock and 44” Rice swamped barrel.   Walnut stock, minimal carving, no cheek piece and browned barrel and furniture.

Here’s the twist…I want to build my rifle to resemble my GGGgrandfather’s English fowler which is on display in the Alabama state archives.   It's not meant to be an exact replica but a practical shooter (target & hunting).  That's why I want a riled barrel verses a smoothbore. 

So my question is building such a “hybrid” considered a cardinal sin among builders?  I know among re-enactors and maybe trekkers this might raise some eyebrows.

Open to any and all suggestions, observations and opinions.

Many Thanks

Rick in Virginia

[smart dog]

Hi Rick,
There is a southern (Virginia?) made rifle shown in Shumway's "Rifles of Colonial America" Vol. 2 that is shaped much like an English fowler and the hardware is similar as well.

dave

[brokenflint]

RL  your nickle do what suits your fancy  As this has some historical significance to you personally I wouldn't be to concerned what others really think about this.  Go for it.  I do have a question, what does the original look like?  Would say the Chambers fowler with a rifled barrel be a closer approximation of GGG's fowler?  Seems like it might be less work in reshaping?  I think if you talk to Jim/Barbie the barrel inlet for a different profile could be arranged.  Just my 2c take it as you will

BF

[rich pierce]

BrokenFlint, that is genius. Great advice.

[54ball]

 Jim's Fowler and Smoothrifle are both offered with optional rifled barrels.

46" Octagon-to-round
Standard barrel is 20 ga. smooth bore
Barrel can be rifled in a 50 or 54 Caliber, or smooth bored to a 24 or 28 ga. on special order
Rifled barrels $20 extra

[Ed Wenger]

Rick, 

I'd second what 54ball posted regarding the Chambers kits.  The smooth rifle has a cheek piece, but there's no reason the stock couldn't be "tweaked", and the cheek piece removed.  The fowler with a rifled barrel would seem to fit the bill....

As Dave (smart dog) pointed out, there is historical president for such a rifle.  The rifle Dave referred to was from the Fredericksburg area of Virginia.  That rifle also has a cheek piece though...

Welcome to the Forum!

           Ed

[54ball]

 Here's a thought,
  Build a rifle, any type of rifle you want unrelated to your grandfathers rifle. That relieves some emotional stress, so you can just build a gun and it also prepares you for that build later. Take classes, go to shows and study all you can.
 Then when you have your skills honed some, build your version of your ancestors gun from a blank.
 I volunteer for a park run by the Alabama Historical Commission. I may have a contact and maybe just maybe I can get photos and a tracing for you.
 I'm going down there Friday week but most likely it will be June or later if they'll let me do this.
 Just PM me the info on the gun and I'll see what I can do.
 

[thimble rig]

Maybe get 2 barrels for the fowler kit 1 smooth and 1 rifled use wedges instead of pins with a hooked breech.Easy to swap the barrels out.Dont know what kind of hunting you but  that would cover all the bases and plus target shooting.

[Long John]

Rick,

Welcome to the forum.

From a purely artistic point of view you can do what ever you want.  But you mention wanting a practical shooting gun for hunting and targets.  Keep in mind that the stock architecture of an American longrifle, especially those built in the second half of the 18th century, was the product of two centuries of evolution in stock design.  These guns were known world-wide as exceptionally accurate compared to other designs of the day. 

There are two features of the longrifle that contribute to that accuracy.  The first is the rear sight.  While many smooth-bored guns of the 18th century had rear sights,  they were generally not as precisely cut as those of a rifle-gun.  Second was the stock architecture, itself.  A well-built longrifle can be shouldered with one's eyes closed and when you open your eyes the sights are lined-up.  The cast-off and cheek piece combine to locate your eye in line with the sights.  That stock architecture is not generally present on a smooth-bored fowler.

So you can build what you have in mind; it's your gun build it the way you want!  But....if effective accuracy is more important to you than the visual appearance then you would be well-advised to look more seriously at the stock architecture of the rifle-guns.  They are the way they are for a reason - to hit!

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[frogwalking]

I am having fun building this little hunting rifle for my 17 year old grand daughter.  As you can see, it is shaped more fowler than rifle.


The barrel is a Rice 40 caliber, swamped, 31 1/2 inches long.  The lock is a small Siler from chambers.  LOP is 12 3/4 inches and weight is 5 1/2 lbs.  I still need to brown or blue the barrel and lock, otherwise it is load development and sight in time.

[B.Habermehl]

John, I have to agree and disagree with you at the same time. What ever style of gun be it English or Germanic when built for myself, will pass the closed eyes mounting test. Of course if the guns are built from a pre carved stock, all bets are off. BJH

[Daryl]

Here's mine - I' like to get a rifled barrel for it - maybe .54(don't have one) or a .58. As a 20 bore, it's a great shooter - with shot.

[Malamute]

 Interesting topic. Ive had the same thing in mind after I saw that Tracks English Fowler kits had rifled barrels available as an option as was indicated above.

 My dad had an old Scottish 16 ga flint fowler, it was stocked magnificently for me. I wished I could find or have a rifle built that was stocked similarly, which was the starting point of thinking about it.

 My experience with Longrifles was that they didn't fit me well at all, a less tight crescent, or preferably a shotgun type butt, and less drop in the stock would be an improvement in feel, though I guess its all based on having a gun built for an individual. I haven't found many crescents that fit me comfortable, shotgun type butts do, and are quick handling.

[bob in the woods]

What type of long rifles have you seen or tried ?  I ask because you mention recent butt plates.  If by fowler style, you mean less drop and a nice wide flat butt, my Edward Marshall  from Chambers  as an example, is a dream to shoot. There are a lot of various schools/styles that have wonderfully shooter friendly architecture.   Most importantly, simply build a gun to fit you.

[B.Habermehl]

I just got done building my own version of the John Bullard\ John Newcomber rifle, in .45 cal with a Getz B weight 42 inch barrel last fall. I used a Davis round faced lock, and Reeves Goehring Castings. I had a piece of Curley chestnut waiting for this project probably 10 years. Although I planned some simple carving I found the wood was not at all suitable so it was finished without carving. I am well pleased with how it fits an shoots. I does pass the eyes closed gun mounting test. So building a rifle with British fowler architecture is doable with satisfactory results. Mine does have a cheek piece in the German style, though it is only 1/4 inch high at the rearmost point. BJH

[rich pierce]

As sometimes happens, the original poster asks a question then we talk among ourselves about what we would do.   

He wants to build a gun that looked like an English fowler because of a family gun belonging to an ancestor.  But wants a rifle for his shooting purposes.

I would go ahead and model your rifle after that ancestral gun, right down to the type of stock wood, furniture, and architecture.  You can readily get an octagon to round rifled barrel that would work.

[RFindley]

First to all respondents, thanks for your advice and insights.  You have been a great help and I feel more motivated than ever to build my first rifle.  This may actually evolve in to two projects; first a practical shooter inspired by my GGGranddaddy's gun and second a more exact replica. 

54Ball - thanks for your offer....email sent.
Smart Dog & Ed - I feel much more comfortable knowing there is a historical precedent.  I am only about 20 minutes north of Fredericksburg where that particular rifle was referenced to.

Several of you mentioned the Chamber's fowler and smooth gun kits as starting points.  Looking at what is available from Chambers and Dunlap (only about 25 miles form me) I found that the Chambers Early Lancaster has the closest shaped stock & comb for me.  As my first attempt at building a flintlock I am not comfortable starting with a stock blank and both Dunlap & Chambers seem to have a good reputation for their barrel in-letting.  I definitely want to go with a .50 or .54 swamped barrel (Rice), a Chambers lock and prefer iron furniture.

Again Thanks and although I am a slow builder I hope to eventually put up pics of my final project.

Rick in Virginia

[gunmaker]

An English sporting/stalking/gents rifle will be about identical to a same period smoothbore.
  Flat BP, 2-1/2"to 3-3-1/2" drop at heal (more'r less to fit you.).  Take a look at those if you want......Tom

[Vomitus]

     I've always admired Chambers "Smooth Rifle". One day I want to try it with the rifled .54 barrel. Anyone ever try this? Heavy, light, jus rite?

[54ball]

 UPDATE....

 The State of Alabama Archives has really helped us on this.

 What I have been able to figure out.

 The gun is a later period Birmingham made (tombstone proofed) English shotgun, single barrel that originally had a flat tailed English lock. It may have been flint as a breech bolster with drum does not quite have the same patina as the rest of the barrel. A smaller percussion lock with a round tail has been fitted in the bigger mortise. It looks like the original lock was over 5 inches. I think the closet made lock would be the Davis Twig with the tail filed flat. Their late flint with the flat tail is about the same size as the percussion lock presently on the gun.

 This gun looks to have a hooked breech with a single key. The gun is a halfstock with a single wedding band transition on the barrel. It has a grooved iron underib with the pipes missing.  The nose cap is missing but the entry pipe still exists. The buttplate is missing and was missing in it's years of use. The butt has worn smooth and the mortise on the comb was filled with a piece of wood shaped and nailed in place to fill it. This work along with the lock replacement is very crude.

 This gun here from Track has a lot of the same features. The museum gun has a similar comb line but the wrist transition is more graceful (a little less drop) and the iron furniture is of a much higher grade (scrolled guard highly engraved) the barrel tang shows engraving as well.
  

 This leaves me to conclude that the museum gun may be a little earlier than the gun pictured here. Personally I believe the museum gun dates to 1810-25 or so.

  

[tecum-tha]

http://www.bolk-antiques.nl/index.cfm?page=collection&cat=1209&subcat=2185&catname=Antique%20Long%20guns

Go down to the one saying:
A very nice german or French flintlock sporting rifle,signed JAI,circa 1720, caliber 15mm rifled,
146cm long in very good condition.

Click on the small picture to see the bigger pictures. About as close to a fowler a rifle can be....and long before the "colonial invention of longer rifled barrels" ;-))
Even the sight is like a fowler sight with a rear sight on the tang. Awful long sighting plane....

[RFindley]

UPDATE....

 The State of Alabama Archives has really helped us on this.

 What I have been able to figure out.

 The gun is a later period Birmingham made (tombstone proofed) English shotgun, single barrel that originally had a flat tailed English lock. It may have been flint as a breech bolster with drum does not quite have the same patina as the rest of the barrel. A smaller percussion lock with a round tail has been fitted in the bigger mortise. It looks like the original lock was over 5 inches. I think the closet made lock would be the Davis Twig with the tail filed flat. Their late flint with the flat tail is about the same size as the percussion lock presently on the gun.

 This gun looks to have a hooked breech with a single key. The gun is a halfstock with a single wedding band transition on the barrel. It has a grooved iron underib with the pipes missing.  The nose cap is missing but the entry pipe still exists. The buttplate is missing and was missing in it's years of use. The butt has worn smooth and the mortise on the comb was filled with a piece of wood shaped and nailed in place to fill it. This work along with the lock replacement is very crude.
 

Update to the update...

As 54Ball said, the Alabama State Archives have been extremely helpful and so has Travis. Much appreciation to them and the rest of you who have chimed in on my project.

With all the information, suggestions and research leads that have come forth I have refined my initial plans for my project.  I am going to try and replicate GGGranddaddy's fowler as closely as possible to it's original appearance.  Some searching around the web have turned up most of the appropriate hardware.  The only concession will be a rifled barrel vs his smoothbore.

As 54Ball pointed out, the original flintlock was about 5 inches and flat tailed which agrees with the pictures and measurements that Alabama provided.  I had considered the R.E Davis late Ketland lock but it is a little short of 5 inches, so I think the Twigg lock "bobtailed" flat will be a good fit and probably as close to what the original lock was.  From Track's description and what I've read R.E. Davis makes a decent lock.

I have drawn up a rough working plan (over a TOW Issac Haines Lancaster plan) and it looks like this will be a doable project for my first build.   Actual measurements and photos are close matches.  And Track has a fowler stock available with only an undersized barrel channel and a full ramrod drill.  No other inletting has been done and it is available in walnut as the original.  It is a fullstock so no problem for me to cut it back to a half stock and my LOP is about 13 1/3 inches so I have plenty of wood for inletting the buttplate.  It has about a 4 inch line-of-sight drop (vs 3" on the Issac Haines) but the drop seems to match what I see and estimate in my photos.  (TOW also recommends the Twigg lock as a good lock choice)

NOW an important question for the experts:  Colerain makes a 44" octagon-to-round rifled barrel in both .54 & .58 cal which fit perfectly into my plan.  The only thing I am concerned about is the profile description says there is a slight flare at the muzzle (about .063" over the last 5").  Since this is a half stock I will have to use an under barrel rib per the original gun.  Will there be a problem installing the rib and/or the ramrod tubes?  Should I just plan on ending the rib a couple of inches short of the muzzle?

Suggestions or experiences needed.

Thanks

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Buy a sheet metal under-rib as opposed to a milled/machined one.  then you can make the rib fit the taper/s of the barrel by spreading or pinching the rib.  Solder or rivet it to the barrel.  MBS and Dixon's, and Rice Barrels sell such a rib.

[Dphariss]

I am truly a newbie both to flintlock gunsmithing and this forum but after reading quite a few of the responses it is obvious that this is the place to ask my questions.

I am planning a rifle using a Jim Chambers early Lancaster stock and 44” Rice swamped barrel.   Walnut stock, minimal carving, no cheek piece and browned barrel and furniture.

Here’s the twist…I want to build my rifle to resemble my GGGgrandfather’s English fowler which is on display in the Alabama state archives.   It's not meant to be an exact replica but a practical shooter (target & hunting).  That's why I want a riled barrel verses a smoothbore. 

So my question is building such a “hybrid” considered a cardinal sin among builders?  I know among re-enactors and maybe trekkers this might raise some eyebrows.

Open to any and all suggestions, observations and opinions.

Many Thanks

Rick in Virginia

Back in the mid-1970s I was at a gun show in Palmer Alaska and came across a table with flintlocks. One, stocked and looking like a light fowler, it was labeled "Militia Rifle". I asked how this was so and the guy behind the table said look in the muzzle. It was smooth for about 4" then rifled at about 54 caliber. It had a little blade sight, either dovetailed or inset, I think inset for a front sight, and a rear sight that was erupted on the top flat of the 1/2 oct barrel with a chisel as seen on many trade guns in the west at least.  So there is some historical precedent. It appeared to the original. But at the time I was more trusting that I am today.

Dan