Author Topic: charcoal bluing again.  (Read 29200 times)

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: charcoal bluing again.
« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2016, 10:33:54 PM »
Jerry,

I just wanted to thank you for all the work you are dong to establish the science behind traditional gun finishes.    I look forward to the scientific truth about charcoal/heat bluing. 

Mark

Offline JCKelly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1434
Re: charcoal bluing again.
« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2016, 01:11:57 AM »
and again . . .

Courtesy Jerrywh I just learned about the Colt book, A Century of Achievement & it is on order.

During this discussion people have mentioned moisture, in association with charcoal. Moisture is formed by burning charcoal that has been charred at a modest temperature, say 700F. Char it too hot and it will form no moisture. If moisture is a problem in your charcoal bluing (I personally have no experience here) it would be less problem to use charcoal left over from annealing, so it has already been heated rather hot.

Ever hear the virtues of good old "moist burning powder"?

Ned Roberts discusses it on pages 81 and 204. "The essentials of a first-class black rifle powder are: First it must be a moist burning powder . . ."

I had no idea what he was talking about. Where on earth could the moisture come from, surely not the charcoal which is simply carbon and ash? Wrong! Years later I learned from Bill Knight & others that it depends upon how hot was the wood in the charring process. Charcoal for black powder contains some creosote, and when it burns it is the creosote that forms some water. Not much, mind you, just enough to make it a "moist burning powder"

I was the Tech guy at a supplier of specialty heat resistant alloys. One day I got a call from South America asking, I believe, if our RA330 was good for his charcoal production. Happens it was ideal. I like to chat, so I asked how hot did they char the wood. I believe he said 350°C, which would be about 660°F.

Oscar Gaddy said something analogous in his color case hardening article, Part 2,1997 published in The Double Gun Journal. He annealed old parts in a stainless steel cylinder filled with granulated charcoal. Did this at 885°C, which is 1625°F.  Here he says "If previously unheated wood charcoal is used, as the container reaches a dull red heat color, volatile aromatic hydrocarbons are driven from the wood char coal, and at even higher temperatures these volatile gasses start to burn as they escape from the annealing container. . . Wood charcoal previously heated to this temperature has much superior properties over unheated charcoal when mixed with bone charcoal as a carburizing agent for color case-hardening . . . After the furnace and annealing container have cooled to room temperature, the wood charcoal . . . is stored in an air tight container to prevent the absorption of water vapor . . . for future use."

This is a long way around to say yep, you can get moisture from charcoal. Personally dunno how that would affect the bluing, or whether the charcoal stuck to the steel. That is up to you guys who do this sort of thing.

Earlier someone mentioned using real wood charcoal. Yes, yes, yes, the stuff has to look like chunks of wood turned black. Charcoal briquettes are made with petroleum coke which contains sulfur- because pet coke is cheaper than wood. I know the effect personally, from very careless usage one day, what this can do to a nice smooth steel rod being case-hardened.

OK, I'll shut up now.   


Tmas

  • Guest
Re: charcoal bluing again.
« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2016, 01:39:21 AM »
J C , Please, for our edification, never stand silent.
You either Jerry.

Thank you to  both of you.

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: charcoal bluing again.
« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2016, 05:48:48 PM »
 Long john. 
   Just pack the bore tight with charcoal and make a charcoal plug for the ends.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: charcoal bluing again.
« Reply #54 on: May 05, 2016, 08:48:17 PM »
Notice in the backgroung there are some guns standing and on the extreme left there are a stack of gun barrels. The little spools on the bench are spools of gold wire.


Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

r010159

  • Guest
Re: charcoal bluing again.
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2016, 06:40:43 AM »
I have read through this discussion with interest. I have a description of the early Colt bluing process during the manufacture of their percussion pistols. The description was provided by a Colt historian named Mr. Cole. This appears to differ from all of your discussion of heat bluing. Please let me know what the difference means between the charcoal bluing process described here and what has been described in this thread. Please note the short duration in the coals, the use of oakum, and the repeated application of heat.

"Hand bluing was done in a coal furnace about 10 feet long. Just above the fire was a solid grate to control the flame. The top of the grate was covered with ground charcoal and bone to the depth of approximately 3 feet. The charcoal was brought to a smolder. Parts to be blued were first thoroughly cleaned in gasoline by workmen wearing white gloves to prevent fingerprints and then placed on rods or holders (approximately 10) and placed in the smoldering charcoal. After two or three minutes they were withdrawn and rubbed with handful of oakum or tow, and with a powder known as whiting. This was repeated approximately six times until the proper blue color was obtained."

So what do you guys think?

Bob
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 06:42:21 AM by r010159 »