how to fix a missaligned drum / niple

[Mikecooper]

I have a percussion rifle and when the drum is tightened it goes a little too far and the nipple is too far clockwise from the hammer.   The previous owner fixed it by putting a thin piece of lead sheet between the drum and barrel so it would get tight at just the right spot.   But I'm concerned that may not be a safe fix.    I'm guessing the best way to fix it is install a new drum and drill for the nipple in the right place.    Is there any other solution other than installing a new drum?   or is that the best thing to do? 

[P.W.Berkuta]

That would be my fix for it . Then buy the "Drum Installation Tool" from TOTW -- <https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/1033/1> to get the nipple in the correct position. 

[Ky-Flinter]

Hi Mike,

How far off is it?  I had a rifle with the same problem, just barely off, and I made a "washer" out of .004" brass shim stock.  Worked for years with no troubles until I converted it to flint.  I wouldn't use lead.  I'd be afraid of it compressing, maybe getting loose.  Then again, a new drum and properly aligned nipple will fix it for sure.

-Ron

[Acer Saccharum]

A couple of requisites for drums:
1) the lockplate MUST support the drum solidly. The threads alone are not enough to rely on.
2) do NOT remove the drum for cleaning the rifle. Never remove the drum unless absolutely necessary, as the threads wear and stretch, the drum by nature will go past its original location.



Can you turn the shoulder back on the drum so you can get 3/4 of a turn farther in? You may need to bend the hammer. If you don't want to mess with the hammer, then fit a new drum.

[Natureboy]

  I'm definitely not a gunsmith, and only average competent with things like drills, jigs etc.  I put in the new drum and nipple, though, using the TOTW drum installation kit.  I bought two drums in case I messed up the first one, but it went in fine, and I got the nipple aligned properly.  So if I can do it, anyone can. It's an inexpensive fix for a problem which would deform the nipple if not put in just right.

[Bob Roller]

Solid advice! PAY ATTENTION TO IT and I will add NEVER use a drum on a rifle firing a heavy
elongated bulled like 500+ grain 451's.

Bob Roller

[Mikecooper]

Thanks for all the advice.  I think replacing the drum is the right thing to do.  I see the drilling tool on TOTW so I'll get that to help with alignment

Here are a couple pics, the lead washer is in place so it's lined up.  I think you can see from these pics that there is a slight gap between the drum and lock plate.  So would it be best to get a larger drum and do some filing on the lock plate so it fits properly? 

[Natureboy]

  I'm guessing that the lock plate should support the drum on the opposite side from the nipple, so the hammer blow won't deform it.  I can't tell from the photo if that side of the drum is in contact with the lock plate, but it looks that way.  One thing I thought about after I had installed my new drum and nipple is that I should have taken the old, mashed nipple, cut off the threads, and used it to see where the new nipple hole should be.  The angle of the hammer-nipple connection changes as the hammer moves all the way down, and I lucked out--it didn't change that much due to the nipple being taller than it would be when screwed in all the way, but that's why I bought two drums in case I messed up the first one.

[Mikecooper]

It is touching on the other side opposite the hammer.   That's a good idea to cut off the nipple threads.   I'll do that when I install the new one.

[Mikecooper]

I have another question regarding this drum.   I took out the lead spacer and realized the drum is not at an exact right angle to the barrel flat.    I can fix the misalignment of the nipple but I don't think I can adjust the angle of the drum.  It's not off by much.   So how big a deal is that?   I've seen it shoot in competitions so I think it's safe to shoot that way. 

This is a gun I'm hoping to sell on here or somewhere once I get it in top notch shape.  But will anyone buy it if it's not perfectly square to the barrel?

[Natureboy]

   My "Hawken" replica had the same look--the drum had been hammered so that it was no longer at right angles to the barrel.  I'm glad I went to the trouble to replace the whole thing--drum and nipple.  I didn't feel good about shooting it if the drum had been stressed that much.  Also, I think the drum had different threads than the barrel, and had been forced into the hole.  I had a very hard time getting the old drum out, so when I got the new one I also bought a tap with the appropriate threads and cleaned up the hole in the barrel.  The new drum went right in easily, and the jig I got from TOW worked great.  All I  had to work with is a simple vice and a hand drill, but no problem!

[Mikecooper]

In the case of my rifle I think that whoever installed the drum drilled the hole at a slight angle into the barrel so the drum wasn't forced to an angle it was installed that way initially.    I have the jig to drill a new nipple.  Now I need to get a new drum.  But when I install it, it will still be at a slight angle.   I don't see any way to correct that without drilling out and retapping the original hole and I'm not going to do that. 

[Natureboy]

  If the new drum's dimensions are larger than the old one's, you could either drill the new hole yourself, or do like I did when I wanted to install a "White Lightning" vent in my flintlock.  I took it to a machine shop, where the guys who work love guns.  I can't do anything as precise as that, not having a drill press.  Cleaning up the threads in my "Hawken" was easy, so I did it, but I wouldn't trust myself to drill a new hole in the barrel.  Definitely scary for someone who is good with an axe, but nothing high tech.

[Mikecooper]

this is what it looks like.  Pic on the left it is not screwed all the way in.   Pic on the right it is fully seated although could turn a little more, this was just finger tight.   
You can see fully seated it doesn't look like too bad of an angle.   I don't want to drill a bigger hole in the barrel.  It's 40 calibre and the barrel flats aren't real big.   

[okawbow]

Looks like you have enough room to drill and tap to a larger size. What size is it now?

I use the largest size threads I can fit on the barrel flats. I don't want the drum to break off, and a larger size on the drum threads also allows a larger flash hole for more reliable ignition.

[chubby]

Looks to me like your hole for the drum is already loose in the thrds. if it starts crooked or loose then tightens flat thats not good!! you have plenty of room for next size drum, you also already have a gap behind the existing drum. I would work on the front of the plate to support the newer drum,and you should be good from there better safe than not!! its just my opinion!   Chubby   

[Ky-Flinter]

That looks like a Siler lock.  Convert the rifle to a flintlock!  Problem solved.

-Ron

[Mikecooper]

I thought the hole might already be kind of big compared to the barrel flat but now I will consider resizing it and putting a bigger drum.    It would be cool to convert to flint but will probably leave it as percussion.   

[Steve-In]

I am guessing if you would convert to flint you should still drill and tap to the next size up.
I suggest you take it to someone that has a good mill or a really solid drill press if you do not have access to either.  The reason is to get a good hole that is square with the barrel in all axis.  If your barrel is tapered or swamped this really complicates matters.  It looks to be a 1/4-28 from your pictures.  Tap drill for 5/16-24 is a Letter I (.2717") so if it is 1/4-28 you have room to go to the the 5/16.  You will need to remove the barrel from the stock and the breechplug from the barrel to do this properly.

[Gaeckle]

I agree with Steve-In.....get a new drum in the next larger size. When you get the new drum and drill and tap for the next size very carefully take a counter sink and ever so slightly counter sink the hole. The drums supplied have threads that stop just shy of the bottom of the drum where the male screw meets the body of the drum.

It doesn't take much for the counter sink. Carefully examine the drum and you'll see that there is not a 90 degree angle.

I'm not sure if there is the need to remove the breech plug, but if you must, srike a witness mark on the plug where it meets the barrel.

I am wondering if the guy who installed the drum used a hand drill and mis alligned the hole a tad....if you have access to a drill press that would be the best way to do it.

[Long John]

Mike,

I was OK with making a washer of brass instead of lead until I saw your photo of the drum removed versus in tight.  In my opinion, for there to be that much variation in alignment those threads ARE NOT SAFE TO SHOOT.  It seems to be a pretty rifle from the rest of the photos but a new drum installed properly is a must. 

You will have to pull the barrel out of the stock.  (That will probably require the removal of the lock.  Also, make sure that you keep the ramrod in the gun to help support the forestock during the barrel removal process and while the stock is minus its barrel.)  You will then need to install a new drum with a larger diameter threaded portion.  That means putting the barrel in a drill press, making sure the barrel is clamped square and drilling out the existing hole to the proper tap diameter for the larger thread, tapping the hole with the proper tap, and installing the new drum so that it is flush and properly seated against the barrel flat.  When I did a drum installation I always used an undrilled drum and drilled the seat for the nipple after installing the drum.  Once all that is done re-install the barrel and then carefully file the lock plate so that it will slip in place while supporting the drum.  Its a couple of hours of work and has to be done right.

Good luck!

John Cholin

[JBJ]

I would add to what Long John said - also check to make sure that the threaded portion of the drum does not protrude into the bore. If t does then you will need to adjust the length carefully so that the threaded end of the plug corresponds and is flush to the radius of the bore. For me this is a slow and fiddly process. I am sure there are members of the Forum who have a better method than what I employ - careful round filing and then a polish with a round grinding point. I find that I have to remove the drum two or three+ times to get this done. So be careful to make a witness mark on the drum so that you can re-tighten with  minimal stretching of the threads. I do not use drums that are pre-drilled for the nipple! I hope that someone will chime in with a better method!
J.B.

[Scota4570]

"2) do NOT remove the drum for cleaning the rifle. Never remove the drum unless absolutely necessary, as the threads wear and stretch, the drum by nature will go past its original location."

Agreed.  So, if the treads were good, not so here, but anyway if they were......

If it only went a little past index, Why not use one of the super duper professional grade Loctite bonding agents?  Some of those are crazy strong.  They can be removed with heat.  They would protect the threads from corrosion.  The drum would never unscrew unless you heated it. 

PS:  I am not referring to the the hardware store Loctite. 

[Mikecooper]

Thanks for all the good advice everyone.    I'll replace the drum with next larger size first making sure it's not too big for the barrel flat.   It will take a while but I'll post results when it's done.   

I would consider converting to flint but then I wouldn't have that nice engraving on the lock plate.    This gun also has some modern sights on it which I may replace with more traditional ones.