Author Topic: Engraver's ball vice  (Read 5216 times)

Offline Scota4570

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Engraver's ball vice
« on: August 17, 2016, 09:33:18 PM »
I have a good pneumatic engraving tool.  My vice is a home made thing.   I am ready to splurge and get something nice.  What do you engravers recommend for ML work? 

Offline Chris Treichel

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Re: Engraver's ball vice
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2016, 09:39:07 PM »
There are jewelers vices and pitch bowls both serve their purpose well.

Offline Ed Wenger

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Re: Engraver's ball vice
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2016, 09:46:01 PM »
Any of the GRS or Lindsay vices work really nicely.  For what we do, probably any of them would work well.  If you're going to be doing an chiseling work, larger would work better because of their weight.

Keep an eye on EBay, or Craigslist.  A lot of times you can pick them up a little cheaper there.  Also, the engraving forums have used ones for sale from time to time, or post a WTB post there.



        Ed
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Offline Waksupi

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Re: Engraver's ball vice
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2016, 10:25:27 PM »
I did it cheap. I mounted a pin vise on a bowling ball that I got from Salvation Army for five bucks, set in a dog dish at fifty cents from the same source. Heavy enough to do the work, cheap enough to suit this tight wad. 
Ric Carter
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Offline dogcatcher

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Re: Engraver's ball vice
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2016, 12:11:31 AM »
I also went the route of the bowling ball vise, it works okay and the price was right.  I have also been looking at these engraver's ball vises.   https://www.utopiatools.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=ball+vise&Submit=

Again on the Utopia Tools vises the price is right and the reviews on 2 of them are pretty good.  This is a hobby, and the price beats the GRS vises by a few miles.   If and when I decide to upgrade it will be one of the Utopia Tools vises. 

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Engraver's ball vice
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2016, 12:13:06 AM »
Yeah, I made one too, sort of.  I cast about 50# of wheel weights in a salad bowl.  I attached a milling machine vice to the flat side of the lead mass.  That mass sits in a round hole in a board.  That board sits on a lazy susan.  

I want something nicer.  I definitely want to be able to tilt the work.  I had back pain for quite a while after my last engraving attempt.  Doing good work is hard enough with quality tools.  I spent over a grand on the engraver, I might as well go all in and do it right.  

I am trying to make due with a Luxo lamp magnifier. It does not quite get it.  The darn thing tends to vibrate and fog up from my breath.   I see real engravers use a microscope.  I ought to be looking for one of those.    

Another problem I have been having is transferring an engraving pattern.  I would like to be able to transfer a photo copy to the object to be engraved.  I have not found a really good way to do that.  I wish I was a better artist so I could free hand it.  

I have been eyeballing the Utopia Tools  unit.  The first review talks about the pin holes being poorly made. that scares me.  

I am very over bargain Asian stuff.  They seem to run crappy/dull cutters at the fastest possible feed rate during manufacture.  I just spent about 10 hour on a Chinese air rifle.  Every surface was rough as a corn cob.  For about ten extra bucks they could have made a world class air rifle.

I may just go ahead and grab the necessary cash out of the "Scoobie" account and buy the GRS.  I just need to talk myself into it.  
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 12:30:43 AM by Scota4570 »

Offline elkhorne

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Re: Engraver's ball vice
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2016, 01:50:51 AM »
Scota4570,
As Ed says, you can not go wrong with either GRS or Lindsay. I have a GRS and they are very good to work with. Looking at a Lindsay for portability. Good luck with your purchase.
elkhorne

Offline bama

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Re: Engraver's ball vice
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2016, 02:41:57 AM »
There are tools and then there are TOOLS. I guess you should ask yourself what kind of work do you want to turn out. If your quality level is at hobby level, then cheap is good, a grade above hobby level the tool level should reflect this. If you want to do above average quality work then invest in good tools. They don't have to be the most expensive but they need to be good. As have been recommended GRS and Lindsay are very good tools, not cheap but not super expensive either.

I started out with a bowling ball vise and soon realized it was not what I needed to do better work. I now have a GRS low profile with a turn table, best money I ever sent.

Best of luck
Jim Parker

"An Honest Man is worth his weight in Gold"

Offline Chowmi

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Re: Engraver's ball vice
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2016, 07:13:33 AM »
 

Another problem I have been having is transferring an engraving pattern.  I would like to be able to transfer a photo copy to the object to be engraved.  I have not found a really good way to do that.  I wish I was a better artist so I could free hand it.  


Apologies, that this is slightly off topic, but I am in the same boat.  I'm practicing drawing, but I'm pretty terrible at it.  I can follow a line with a graver, just can't draw it yet.
I've been considering getting this product:
http://www.dickblick.com/products/grafix-rub-onz-transfer-film/?clickTracking=true&wmcp=pla&wmcid=items&wmckw=12535-1023&gclid=COC-1tWMws4CFQEFaQodfPAG9A#description

I thought I might copy some original engraving while I practice drawing.  It says the transfer is permanent, but I can't imagine it will stand up to a bit of light sanding...

Oh, and to stay on topic, glad to see the recommendations for ball vices.  It's a future purchase for me, I've bought way too many gun parts, books, etc this year!!

Cheers,
Chowmi
Cheers,
Chowmi

NMLRA
CLA

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Engraver's ball vice
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2016, 07:52:51 AM »
 I have a custom made 45 pound ball on a turn table. It can't be beat but it is also near impossible to get and cost $1000.00 . Scota4570 has one of the best ideas I have heard so far. Ideally, you need a big heavy set up to do gun engraving. Those little jewelers balls are a joke for gun work. Try turning a 42" barrel around in one.
 If your ball is on a turntable you don't need a rotating type.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Chris Treichel

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Re: Engraver's ball vice
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2016, 05:48:38 PM »
if you are going to be doing work on an object that is hard to hold and needs to be worked on both sides without marring anything.... you may want to look into a Japanese pitch bowl. Basically it is a big steel bowl filled 3/4 with lead and or steel junk. Then you add a mixture of pitch, charcoal, etc into the top. This produces a very hard pitch that can be easily heated and molded to hold almost any metal shape. It holds the object without marring it in any way and to remove the piece you just place a small tool next to the piece and give it a whack which shatters the pitch. It is very useful. Here is a picture of a monster head for a pistol being held in the pitch.

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Engraver's ball vice
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2016, 06:04:16 PM »
Interesting, I did not know about pitch bowls.  Where does one obtain "pitch".

For that situation I have been attaching the object to a wood block with hot glue or CA glue.  I then grab the wood block in the vice.  To release it I heat it with the heat gun.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Engraver's ball vice
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2016, 06:38:22 PM »
I don't have a pitch bowl, but I've seen them in use and they are excellent.  I have a GRS heavy ball vise, though, and I mount my pieces in Bondo on little pieces of spruce wood that I can clamp into the vise.  To release the part from the Bondo, a propane torch warms the metal, and the part comes free, also without damage.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Engraver's ball vice
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2016, 07:34:10 PM »
 A pitch bowl on a turn table would work pretty well for muzzle loader work but for all around engraving it has some shortfalls. At time you might want to engrave on something that has to be turned about every minute like a ring that would require melting the pitch every time.
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Offline Chris Treichel

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Re: Engraver's ball vice
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2016, 09:50:29 PM »
the pitch bowl sits on a ring made of rope, covered in cloth and waxed to provide more friction. You can put the whole lot on a pedestal and walk around it or just turn it in the ring... the friction between the heavy bowl and the waxed ring is more than enough to resist motion. Oh and we were doing chisel work without issue, turning the piece by hand when necessary. No need to reposition the piece until you want to work on the other side. No re tightening or worries about marring any piece of it.

  Here is the recipie I got from my instructor... who got it from Ford Hallam... http://followingtheironbrush.org/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=75

"1 Kg finely ground fire clay or Plaster of Paris
750 grams of Pine Rosin
50 ml of vegetable oil
1 teaspoon of charcoal powder.

Gently melt the rosin in a metal container, do not allow to burn. When completely fluid, with the consistency of runny honey, start adding the filler material ( powdered clay etc ). As you add the powder gently stir it in.
Once it has been completely mixed add the oil and the charcoal powder. At this point resist the urge to stick your hands in the pitch, this may cause some discomfort.

If you are using a pitch bowl it's usual to fill it to within an inch of the top with lead, to give it extra weight and stability when working on it. Presuming the pitch bowl is prepared ( and cool ) fill the remaining space with the still very runny pitch. Once this has cooled enough to allow it to firm up you can begin to slowly add small amounts of now less runny pitch. You can use a cold hammer to help keep the pitch where you want it."

To get the metal item to stick to the pitch you need to heat it or allow it to warm up from the warm pitch. For some reason cold metal does not stick to hot pitch which is why you can move hot pitch around with a cold hammer.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 09:54:44 PM by Chris Treichel »