Need help identifying rifle type

[brcampbe]

Hi, I'm new to this forum and to collecting antique rifles. I was recently given the opportunity to purchase what looks like a plains rifle. It's a flintlock, and the lock is marked Ketland. Caliber seems to be around .50 or so, need to cast it when I get it in hand. Attached are some photos the seller sent me. Any help would be appreciated in identifying this rifle type!

[oakridge]

Looks like a conglomeration of parts to me. Are there any markings on top of the barrel?

[brcampbe]

No, no writing on top of the barrel.

[Nate McKenzie]

Is there any evidence of a filled in drum hole or vent liner.  I'm thinking possibly a late percussion converted to flint.  Could we have a close up picture of the barrel behind the lock plate and the inside of the lock?

[brcampbe]

Ill get those pics as soon as I get it in hand. Any idea why the patchbox is on the left side of stock?

[Nate McKenzie]

Oops!

[Hungry Horse]

Everything about this gun says late percussion era, except of course the flint lock. I also suspect someone found an old half stocked muzzleloader without a lock and added the flintlock. The touch hole could tell the story. If it has a fairly large touch hole liner it probably wasn't originally flint. The patch box on the left was more common in the late percussion era, as was the ambidextrous cheek pieces seen on some late guns. Also the lack of a cheekpiece as seen here is a late percussion feature.

 Hungry Horse

[brcampbe]

Thanks for the info. I bought it as a shooter, so hopefully it works OK for that. Sounds like its not a super collectible piece. When you say late percussion, are we talking 1860's?

[Hungry Horse]

  Later California gunsmiths built muzzleloaders through the 1870's and maybe beyond. The lack of a cheekpiece, and the style of the hardware, suggest this time period. It has features very reminiscent of late California guns. And just to add another ingredient to the mix, it might have been built special for someone living far enough from civilization, that a flintlock made more sense.
 As for using it as a shooter, I wouldn't recommend that. This gun is quite restorable, and if the maker can be identified, maybe quite valuable. Other than it getting possibly more regular cleanings, shooting an antique will take its toll. I have two "shooters" on my bench right now that the hundred plus year old wood just snapped, ruining a fine antique. New steel, new wood, and new metallurgy are always better, build or buy a shooter.

   Hungry Horse

[brcampbe]

Very cool, well I look forward to getting it apart then. Where are the obvious places a maker would have marked it other than on top of the barrel?

[Hungry Horse]

Usually the makers marks are on the top of the barrel. Rarely they are seen on the bottom of the barrel, but usually markings on the bottom of the barrel are those of he barrel maker.

  Hungry Horse

[oakridge]

There could possibly be markings on the barrel under the rear sight, which is surely a later replacement.

[brcampbe]

Ok, so I have the rifle in hand. I think it could be a conversion but I'll let the experts judge it. The lock is marked "Allport & late Ketland & Co" and the barrel is marked "Remington" underneath. There is remnants of the maker on top of the barrel behind the re hear sight, but someone tried to remove them long ago. I may be able to figure it out with a magnifying glass. Looks like there used to be a tang sight on it. Bore is in fantastic shape as are lock internals. I'm happy with it overall.

[brcampbe]

Ok, the maker name says "M. JAMES" over "Utica, NY"

[Bob Roller]

Ok, the maker name says "M. JAMES" over "Utica, NY"

I tend to agree with Hungry Horse. This has all the lines of a New York percussion rifle by
Morgan James,Utica N.Y.My little book called American Firearms Makers have James&Ferris
in Utica N.Y from 1839 to 1861 and partnership dissolved in 1858. Morgan James listed as general gunsmith.
The idea of a flintlock rifle in an area where caps may not be available makes sense as well.
George Ferris was a maker of fine caplock target rifles.

Bob Roller

[eddillon]

Ok, the maker name says "M. JAMES" over "Utica, NY"

I tend to agree with Hungry Horse. This has all the lines of a New York percussion rifle by
Morgan James,Utica N.Y.My little book called American Firearms Makers have James&Ferris
in Utica N.Y from 1839 to 1861 and partnership dissolved in 1858. Morgan James listed as general gunsmith.
The idea of a flintlock rifle in an area where caps may not be available makes sense as well.
George Ferris was a maker of fine caplock target rifles.

Bob Roller

My father's  office and shop in the 1940s and 1950s was in the same building used by Morgan James in the 1850s.