Wrist re-re-repair

[smart dog]

Hi Folks,
A reenactor friend brought in a gun yesterday that has a broken wrist that was repaired twice, once with wooden dowels and glue, and again with a screw and glue.  The break is very clean and is easy to fit back together.  However, my concern is the old glue. The owner thinks that Gorilla glue was used or at least he is sure it was some sort of white wood glue.  Will other glues or epoxies adhere to the old glue?  I would rather not completely separate the pieces because they are still attached.  There is still room for several large wood screws positioned under the trigger guard.  Alternatively, I could also fashion a brass collar and make it look like a period repair.

dave 

[alyce-james]

Good morning Dave; Sir my preference would be a brass collar and make the repair look period to the gun. My deciding factor would be that there is still some past repair holding to work with. Have a great week end. AJ.

[JTR]

Dave, If it were me I would do whatever necessary to remove all or at least most (95%) of the old glue. I don't mean just the big pieces, but from the surface of the wood as well. Re-gluing over old or weak glue is like gluing over oily wood in that no matter how strong the new glue, the old glue or oil will corrupt the new glues' adhesion.  
If you don't want to separate the pieces, fashion a long thin scraper that you can slip up between the pieces, then scrape the glue off on the back pull.
Hidden screws will certainly help as well.
John

[Joe S.]

Second what JTR said.While never did any wood repair on guns did plenty on furniture, trim ect. and putting new glue over old never really felt like a solid fix.With furniture like drawer fronts,sides the repairs would not last as long as if you had mostly bare wood with most of the old glue cleaned off as much as possible.

[Mark Elliott]

You have to remove the old glue.   Use Deglue Goo for water soluble glue like white or yellow wood glue.  Use acetone for epoxy.   You might want to do a final clean with acetone.   Use swabs and brushes to remove the glue.  I would repair the break with a steel pin and epoxy if you don't want it coming apart again.

[smart dog]

Thanks guys,
I anticipated getting rid of the glue.  I'll try the stuff you mentioned Mark, thanks.  My initial idea is to clean the joint and then install 2 large screws and glue with epoxy.

dave

[Boatman53]

I don't believe acetone will remove fully cured epoxy. Heating will soften it so it can then be scraped. My experience is with marine epoxies possibly the hardware store epoxy is different. What I just described is what I've had to do on numerous occasions.
Good luck with the repair Dave. Keep up posted.
Jim

[Hungry Horse]

My first question for the owner, would be, what is he doing that repeatedly breaks the gun in the same place? The previously mentioned repair techniques are pretty standard stuff as repairs go. So he must be doing something that invites this particular damage. I understand that reenacters often treat firearms much like actors treat props, which is why I discourage shooters from buying used firearms from reenacters, and stage companies.
 I agree that the glue has to be removed, if any hope of a solid repair is going to happen. An external brace of one type or another would seem prudent considering the history of the piece.

  Hungry Horse

[Joe S.]

Perhaps Hungry Horse is on to something here.Ask this fellow what's he's doing to cause the break and this can also put you on the course for the best type of repair.Simply gluing it back together is not going to hold if this fellow is really into his craft and he's falling on it because he's real good at getting shot or blown up.Maybe a plywood splint cut into the wrist might help,of course repeat business is good for paying the bills.

[jerrywh]

 Dave.
   Dave Crissali had the best method of strengthening a wrist I ever saw. First glue the wrist back in place without screws . Then  take the trigger guard out and rout a slot in the wrist under the trigger guard . Make it good and deep. Then you can epoxy a hickory stick into the wrist with the grain going in the strongest direction under the trigger guard. You could even use an aluminum piece of flat stock. You can fix this so it can't even be seen when the trigger guard is removed.   
   Crisalli is a certified Genius.  Somewhere this is in the Archives I think.

[FDR]

X2 to what Jerry said. That is the way high grade doubles guns are repaired also especially those with straight stocks.

Fred

[Keithbatt]

Dave.
   Dave Crissali had the best method of strengthening a wrist I ever saw. First glue the wrist back in place without screws . Then  take the trigger guard out and rout a slot in the wrist under the trigger guard . Make it good and deep. Then you can epoxy a hickory stick into the wrist with the grain going in the strongest direction under the trigger guard. You could even use an aluminum piece of flat stock. You can fix this so it can't even be seen when the trigger guard is removed.   
   Crisalli is a certified Genius.  Somewhere this is in the Archives I think.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=30985.msg304589#msg304589


This is the link to Davec2's wrist repair

[smart dog]

Hi,
Thanks Jim, Jerry.  Jim, I don't think it is epoxy but a wood glue.  I'll try Mark's suggestion first to see if I can soften it for scraping.   I think I remember Dave C's method and you are right Jerry, it seemed like it should be solid.  I could do that.  Joe and HH, good question and I do know the answer - poorly done repair.  It is odd that the wrist broke at all because the grain is fine with no run out.  However, I think the stock wood, which is maple but seems a bit soft, may be to blame.  Jerry, Thanks for the link.  I am going to study it.

Dave  

[Dphariss]

Hi Folks,
A reenactor friend brought in a gun yesterday that has a broken wrist that was repaired twice, once with wooden dowels and glue, and again with a screw and glue.  The break is very clean and is easy to fit back together.  However, my concern is the old glue. The owner thinks that Gorilla glue was used or at least he is sure it was some sort of white wood glue.  Will other glues or epoxies adhere to the old glue?  I would rather not completely separate the pieces because they are still attached.  There is still room for several large wood screws positioned under the trigger guard.  Alternatively, I could also fashion a brass collar and make it look like a period repair.

dave 

Clean the glue off as best can be. Wood to wood Titebond or Elmers Carpenter's Glue is best. It will outperform almost anything including epoxy. Any of the white glues are useless, school project stuff. Gorilla glue is poor too. Screws put in vertically are not going to help much if the break is vertical. A fiberglass or steel rod down the wrist after its glued back together will do about as much as plating will. It can be offset to clear tang screws if needed and there is room. For gluing a rod down the wrist I would use a liquid type epoxy not a gel. If you can move it too one side to clear the tang screw a 1/4" piano wire is a good choice, if there is room a 5/16 grade 8 bolt with the head cut off is an option as well. Wooden dowels are a waste of time in this application. In any event wax any exterior surface when you done want glue to stick. The next thing is to restock it with a better piece of wood.
Dan

[smart dog]

Thanks Dan,
That is really helpful.  We may go the restock route eventually.  The parts and barrel are pretty good but the stock is not the best nor is the stock work.  A restock would be a big improvement.

dave

[bgf]

The only thing I might add is that if epoxying in a reinforcement rod, I've had good luck with threaded rod, really holds the epoxy well.  Got a lot of experience repairing wooden toys when my kid was little .

[bob in the woods]

I sent a couple of photos via e-mail...I'm not computer literate !
My vote is to use titebond.  I have never had a repair fail with this glue. And..it blends very well with the surrounding wood , with easy clean up

[Hadden West]

If I was going to fashion a brass collar, then I would make sure it didn't break again by adding some steel rods, inletted and epoxied in place. If you're covering it up, might as well fix the problem, permanently .

[westbj2]

I am thinking the solution noted by Jerry and Dave are good ones.  I might suggest in addition to use the 7 or 9 laminate plywood found in hobby stores. This plywood can be had in several thicknesses.  Several years ago, I put a H&H double back together and was able to get a piece of plywood that was an inch high and 3 1/2" long in the mortice under the trigger guard extension.   Fellow is still shooting the gun with no movement in the repair.

Jim

[A.Merrill]

   I did a repair like this once years ago. Cleaned off old glue the best I could without removing any wood.  But wood can soak up some glue so I didn't really trust the new glue to hold well under pressure. After epoxying the wrist back together I drilled a hole from the breech end down through the wrist about an inch and a half past the break.  Filled the hole about half full of epoxy and pushed a steel rod in it. I think it's the best way to repair a broken wrist.    Al