Author Topic: Questions regarding ferric nitrate  (Read 5103 times)

Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19487
    • GillespieRifles
Questions regarding ferric nitrate
« on: September 15, 2016, 06:58:18 PM »
Probably should have asked these questions before I used ferric nitrate for my first time. Wanting a dark finish (curly maple) I first applied a solution of tannic acid mixed with water, when dry I applied a heavy coat of ferric nitrate also mixed with water. I let the stock dry over night. This morning I blushed it with a heat gun. I was very surprised that I didn't seem to get anywhere near the change in color that I normally get when I use aqua fortis/iron. I was kind of disappointed and figured I needed to put on another application of ferric nitrate but decided to wet it down with alcohol. When wet the wood is much darker but not quite as dark as I would like it.

My question, have any of you noticed how slight the change is from dry ferric nitrate to after you blushed it with heat? I kept thinking I had not gotten the wood hot enough but repeated heating did not result in a darker color.

How likely will I get a darker color if I apply a second coat of ferric nitrate AFTER I have blushed the first coat? If I do apply a second coat should I also apply a second coat of tannic acid?

Both the tannic acid and the ferric nitrate are pretty strong mixtures.
Dennis
 
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline smallpatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4107
  • Dane Lund
Re: Questions regarding ferric nitrate
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2016, 08:17:31 PM »
Dennis,
I've used the tannic/ferric nitrate combo only once.  Had the same issue.  Being a chemical reaction, I would think to apply both again.  Probably will only darken the curl though.  The tannic acid is just not soaking into the harder wood.
Should change a lot from the green/gray to amber/red with heat though.
Next step....... Stain to the shade you want.  LMF now has a black toner.  
Hope this helps!
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 08:19:05 PM by smallpatch »
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19487
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Questions regarding ferric nitrate
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2016, 08:23:32 PM »
Dane,
Thanks, I think I will do another coat of each.

I have not been happy with most of the stains I have used, not sure how to explain it but they seems to not penetrate like I think they should. In some cases they seems to buildup like paint. I want to try some water stain but haven't tried them so far.
Dennis

"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Scota4570

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2398
Re: Questions regarding ferric nitrate
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2016, 01:38:34 AM »
The Laurel Mountain Forge stains are a whole other animal and work great on maple.  They are a dye.  You can make the stock coal black, if you dare. 

Offline smallpatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4107
  • Dane Lund
Re: Questions regarding ferric nitrate
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2016, 03:12:15 AM »
Dennis,
I agree with Scot. LMF are alcohol based dyes and work great.  Don't raise grain too much and can be rubbed back again and again. Darkening the curl, and toning the lighter wood.  Many color variations to choose from, and with a black toner, you an pretty much blend any color you want.
But...... Nothing will bring out the curl like ferric nitrate or AQ.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Long John

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1618
  • Give me Liberty or give me Death
Re: Questions regarding ferric nitrate
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2016, 05:07:54 PM »
Ferric nitrate is the result of the reaction of nitric acid and iron.  It provides a way to get iron ions into the wood without the excitement associated with reacting iron and nitric acid.  The heating process causes the nitrate half of the ferric nitrate to snag onto a hydrogen ion to become nitric acid.  Nitric acid boils (evaporates) at approximately 180 F so heating the stock causes the nitric acid to evaporate, leaving the iron ions behind.  The iron ions go through a couple of reactions that eventually result in ferric oxide, iron oxide, with the typical orangy-brown/brown/blackish-brown rust color.  The color varies somewhat due to the formation of hydrates with the water that is part of the wood.

If the color is not as dark as you expect I would first try reheating the wood.  It might be that the initial heating did not fully drive off the nitrate ions as nitric acid.  Another possibility is that the concentration of the iron nitrate solution was not sufficient to carry enough iron into the wood.  Reapplication of the solution will add additional iron ions but you will have to reheat the wood to drive off the nitrate ions, like before.  My experience leads me to believe that the more iron you get into the wood the more intense the coloration.  Iron oxide is not soluble in water so it doesn't wash out.

I have never used tannic acid.  I know what it is.  It is a poly-phenol with carboxylic acid groups on the perimeter of the molecule.  But I don't know if or how it works, although Mitch Yates says it does and he knows far more than I do.

I have found that when I use iron acetate solution for stain (aka vinegar and iron) that sometimes the stock comes out blacker than I want without the red/orange undertones.  Treating the stock with hydrogen peroxide pushes the reactions towards the orangy-brown color as does heating and leaving the stock dry for a few days.  The blackish color slowly progresses towards the orangy-brown.

That's all I know.  Maybe it is some help to you.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7019
Re: Questions regarding ferric nitrate
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2016, 07:37:40 PM »
Hi Dennis,
I've used ferric nitrate a lot to produce light colors and dark colors.  I don't mix much up at a time because I basically create a custom concentration for every gun I make.  You can darken the color by making a more concentrated solution and by adding more coats of stain.  I varied my concentrations from 1 part ferric nitrate powder to 3 parts water to 1:8 depending on the wood and the desired color.  You will find a point at which more coats or higher concentrations will not darken further and that point seems to depend on the wood.  Adding tannin should also help darken the color.  The color will darken considerably when you put finish on the stock so I always plan for that eventuality. Also, my stains turn a muddy, ugly brownish gray when dry before I apply heat.  You can also dissolve ferric nitrate in alcohol to create a non grain raising stain.  The application process is the same just substitute alcohol for water.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19487
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Questions regarding ferric nitrate
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2016, 10:43:58 PM »
Quote
I varied my concentrations from 1 part ferric nitrate powder to 3 parts water to 1:8 depending on the wood and the desired color.
Thanks Dave, will keep this with my ferric nitrate and tannic acid containers (or else I will never find it!)

I wasn't sure how to mix it, so I just guessed at it, suspect its closer to a 1:8 than 1:3.

I decided against doing a second coat of tannic acid/ferric nitrate. When wet the stain was much darker than when dry, would have liked it a little darker but I didn't want to risk getting it too dark. I am using Chambers oil finish on it hoping to get some red tint to it.

I put the first coat of oil on it yesterday afternoon and now, 24+ hrs later it is NOT dry, its humid as can be here. I thought hanging it outdoors in the sun but its so humid I think I will just put the dehumidifier in the shop and turn it on its driest setting and see how that goes. Don't dare put a second coat on until this one is dry.
Dennis
« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 06:08:14 AM by Ky-Flinter »
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Mauser06

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
Re: Questions regarding ferric nitrate
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2016, 06:03:55 AM »
In regards to Chamber's oil finish...


I finished mine in the shop with the dehumidifier running which also has a pretty decent fan to it...

It was "dry" within a day...I always waited 2 and usually got it in a hot sun for a while after it was dry to touch before rubbing it out and succeeding coats...


Not sure on the ferric nitrate...I used Kiblers's tannic acid and iron nitrate..I wanted it dark with drastic curls..I too was torn between one coat and 2.  I'm happy with how 1 of each turned out..looks a lot different than it did while finishing...colors changed a good bit and it did darken a bit..


When I took the heat to it it turned like a cherry red...