Author Topic: VERY VERY small "silver" nails needed (Read 5746 times)

Molly · « **on:** October 29, 2016, 03:02:24 PM »

I picked up a pretty darn nice original yesterday. There is one small silver inlay which has a missing "silver" tack or nail to keep it down at the point of the inlay. There are numerous others missing but they are inconsequential. Unfortunately this one has caused the inlay to be somewhat bent back and it could easily get snagged on something and cause it to break off. Any idea where I can get a very small "nail" to keep this inlay flat on the stock?

It needs to have a "head", not very long...maybe 3/8th but very very small diameter. So small I don't know how to even measure it!

Brenneman · « **Reply #1 on:** October 29, 2016, 03:10:31 PM »

I have read that people will make "nails" from flat silver sheets. Just trim off a small sliver of silver(hehe) and tap it into a nail shape. the head is formed when you tap it into place I do believe. Viola a silver nail.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #2 on:** October 29, 2016, 03:31:56 PM »

Quote from: Brenneman on October 29, 2016, 03:10:31 PM

I have read that people will make "nails" from flat silver sheets. Just trim off a small sliver of silver(hehe) and tap it into a nail shape. the head is formed when you tap it into place I do believe. Viola a silver nail.

That's sorta what I do. You're going to have to make one.

Molly · « **Reply #3 on:** October 29, 2016, 04:11:30 PM »

So, I just go down to the local Home Depot and get a "silver sheet" and make myself a nail. Very good!

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #4 on:** October 29, 2016, 04:20:21 PM »

Get some silver wire the diameter of the nail you want to make. Heat one end until the silver melts and makes a small ball on the end of the wire. Cut the nail to the length you want, and then, either reduce the ball on the end to the size head you want, with a needle file, or if you need to make several make a simple heading die to form the heads. Hammer the finished nails with a rawhide hammer to work harden them, so they don't bend when you drive them into the wood. I worked as a silversmith years ago, and have made thousands of silver nails this way.

Hungry Horse

moleeyes36 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 29, 2016, 04:20:36 PM »

Molly,

Many of us use these folks https://www.riogrande.com/category/metals/silver for things like silver sheet. They have a lot of different metals used in jewelry making.

Mole Eyes

FALout · « **Reply #6 on:** October 29, 2016, 04:54:20 PM »

I dont think that your gonna find silver sheet or wire at Home Depot.

Tim Crosby · « **Reply #7 on:** October 29, 2016, 05:18:27 PM »

Will these work? The first from the left.

http://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/mbs3cart/agora.cgi?cart_id=839145.12391&p_id=25450&xm=on

Tim C.

Brenneman · « **Reply #8 on:** October 29, 2016, 05:43:28 PM »

I like the wire one! I doubt you will find silver sheet at any hardware or home depot store too.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #9 on:** October 29, 2016, 05:54:21 PM »

German silver isn't silver. She said she was working on an old piece. Restorations should be done with the materials originally use if at all possible.
Worst case scenario you could buy some silver wire hoop earrings, or what is called an elephant hair bracelet, and cut them apart. Thrift stores often have silver jewelry in their display cases pretty cheap.

Hungry Horse

Molly · « **Reply #10 on:** October 29, 2016, 06:54:00 PM »

I'm not calling this a "restoration" but clearly want it to be as correct as possible. It's more of a preventative very minor repair. If that inlay cannot be made to lay flat against the wood it will eventually get broken off. Right now I have plan "B" in place. In better light I see that the stub of the nail is still in the hole of the silver inlay however is looks corroded and the metal is already slightly sprung so it sticks up. I can see the wood under the inlay is not perfect. It's dry, naturally, and the hole in which the nail went appears somewhat larger than the nail. Essentially it looks corroded and would not stay in place even if I had another nail of the same length. SO, I have mixed up the smallest measure of epoxy and using a tooth pick, packed it into the nail hole then bound the inlay with the nail in place on the stock. My hope is that the epoxy will harden, filling the nail hole and stick to the corroded "shank" below the surface and under the inlay. As it looks right now nothing is visible so I'm going to let it set up all day and see what happens when I take the binding off tomorrow. If it pops up I'll need to get a longer nail. Also, while the inlays are silver it looks like the other nails around it might be brass. I have some ultra small brass ones and if the heads were filed down they may work....or maybe not...but it will probably need to be as much as 1/2 inch long to get into the wood.

?

As far as "restoration". NO! Nothing more will be done....NOTHING!!

Robby · « **Reply #11 on:** October 29, 2016, 08:48:54 PM »

You should document all that you do to the gun and keep it with it. Down the road someone may want to do a proper restoration.
Robby

PPatch · « **Reply #12 on:** October 29, 2016, 09:36:39 PM »

Molly, even though you fixed the inlay your way, here is a link to Acer Saccharums tiny nail making tutorial;

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=15.0

Making nails for fixing inlays is a fairly common task with longrifle inlay work. Making them is one of those things that takes some practice.

Sounds like you have a gun similar an SMR I examined at a gun show some years back. The silver inlay was wafer thin and tacked with three quite thin silver wire nails, one of which had lost its head and the inlay bent back. I was amazed at how thin that inlay was.

dave

Molly · « **Reply #13 on:** October 29, 2016, 10:24:07 PM »

Tim:

Those nails (smallest) look like they might work. I just finished filing down a brass one an it honestly looks pretty good. One consideration in my plan "B" is that removing the nail that is currently in the silver inlay hole is a problem potentially. Trying to get it out might actually rip a hole in the silver and make everything worse. It looked as the head might be half under one side of the inlay with the other edge of the head on top, where it should be.

And yes the inlay is very thin...so I'm keeping the hopes up that plan "B" works. It should. The shaft of the nail is uneven and corroded rough, in sort of a mini microscopic way. So the epoxy should stick to it as well as fill the hole in the wood. I'm sure some of you pros think this is a jack leg approach but when it's done and if it works you'll never see it. It seems like the least intrusive approach. I look forward to showing it off tomorrow. But then if it does not work you'll have to wait. THANKS FOR ALL THE SUGGESTIONS.

I looked over MBS website earlier and did not find the nails. Thanks again!!

tallbear · « **Reply #14 on:** October 30, 2016, 02:57:54 AM »

Molly
Pictured below are some silver nails I've been making and supplying to a couple of gunsmiths.They are sterling,have about an .040 shank and are 3/8-1/2" long.If you think one would work for you send me your address in a PM and I'll mail you one.

Mitch Yates

Molly · « **Reply #15 on:** October 30, 2016, 05:17:44 AM »

WOW, that sounds great! Let me take the binding off tomorrow and see how it looks and I'll let you know. A very kind offer and I greatly appreciate it...so please stand by. And I'll be happy to pay for it too!

JCKelly · « **Reply #16 on:** October 30, 2016, 04:14:18 PM »

I suppose you all know this, but the quotes around "silver" make me wonder.

There is actual silver metal, usually sold as sterling silver 92.5% silver 7.5% copper. The copper makes it a little stronger than just pure silver metal. This stuff works under a hammer like nothing else, you can do things with silver & a hammer that will not happen with copper or brass.

Then there is "German Silver", or "Nickel Silver". This is an alloy of copper, zinc, and nickel. It is whitish in color and works, very roughly, like brass. It became popular in the early 19th century for fake silver inlays on firearms.

I don't know which alloy is your inlay. I might, or might not - be able to tell by looking at it. You said it was corroded. I wonder, what color is that corrosion?

Acer's tutorial is fantastic.

Molly · « **Reply #17 on:** October 30, 2016, 04:34:09 PM »

Took the wraps off and it stays down and there is no signs of any "repair". But I still don't like it. There are other nails that have pulled through leaving the nail in place but not holding down the inlay. Seems impossible to even try to remove them without causing damage. And the critical one at the top seems "stuck" in the metal of the inlay so once again removing it is a problem.

As to the term silver...I am using it to characterize the color not necessarily the material. I'll put a photo on of the afflicted area shortly.

Also as to the "corrosion" on the one nail. All I can say is that specific nail is darker on the shank than the head and it shows the effects of metal deterioration. It looks as a nail would look having been in old wood for 200 years with some moisture in the wood from time to time. I'll not call it "rust" however.

Tallbear: I would like to have a few of your nails but unless the ones in place can be removed I could not use them.

I think it's at a point where the tip of the inlay lays flat enough for now and I'll not mess with it any more. but then........

Molly · « **Reply #18 on:** October 30, 2016, 11:14:20 PM »

This is the problem area. Not a great photo but should be sufficient to give you an idea. A couple comments first. The small "tip" of the inlay is detached from the bigger part. My opinion is that the nail which is in that small tip was the only original nail. The one behind the "break" is the problem child and was probably put there when the tip of the inlay pulled up and was broken off.

You can also see several nail heads which are in place along the back of the inlay but there are several "holes" showing as you move along the sides. These nails all seem to have pulled through the metal of the inlay and the nail is still in place in the wood under the hole, thus even if I had nails one would have a difficult time in setting them in place. I suppose an expert would drill them out and maybe then use a replacement but I'm not able to do that and I think anything more would do more harm than good. What I wanted is to just get the tip to lay flat on the wood and it does that.

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #19 on:** October 31, 2016, 12:12:37 AM »

No one has exactly mentioned how I make silver pins/nails. I use sterling silver wire the size of the hole. I drill a hole for the pin and then hammer a piece of wire a little longer than the depth of the hole into the hole. I may serrate the wire with a file, but it usually isn't necessary if the wire and the hole are the exact same diameter to .001" I then trim the wire with a small diagonal clipper about 1/32"-1/16" above the inlay. Then I just pein the wire forming a head. Generally, I use a 4 oz ball pein hammer for this. Usually, I have slightly countersunk the hole in the inlay so that I can file off the pin head flush. I have put in a lot of iron, brass, and silver pins this way.

Molly, in your case, I would recommend that you get a professional restorer to fix the inlay with all silver pins.

Molly · « **Reply #20 on:** October 31, 2016, 04:31:05 PM »

Never gave much thought to making nails. Making them out of "wire" seems to be hard to imagine that they are rigid enough to be hammered into wood but I suppose drilling a hole addresses that.

I never had given thoughts of a "restoration". The rifle is original with all it's faults and there are plenty of them, yet it is far from a basket case and it cuts a pretty clean visual in a display, aka "looks good"! I accept all it's weaknesses. It's an old dog but it still speaks to me and I like it!

Thanks for all the suggestions and offers. As long as the thing stays down I'll be happy.

MAS

P.W.Berkuta · « **Reply #21 on:** November 06, 2016, 07:33:16 PM »

Dixon's has small silver nails & small steel screws. I was there on Friday and purchased 4 packs of #2 X 1/8" screws for $4.50 a pack. I did not count the number of screws in a pack but it looks like at least 12 per pack. They have other sizes available.

News:

Author Topic: VERY VERY small "silver" nails needed (Read 5746 times)

Brenneman

Brenneman