Author Topic: Hawken kit build question:  (Read 8745 times)

Jacknet

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Hawken kit build question:
« on: November 10, 2016, 03:07:07 PM »
Hi all. After many weeks of reading this great forum for BP I'm going to try and post a question. I'm building a Traditions St. Louis Hawken kit which I'm not sure if kits are accepted here in the Gun Building section so let me know if I'm in the wrong forum topic.
I read all the instructions, ordered the staining and blueing kit from Birchwood Casey as per instructions, and am now in the middle of the dry fit. Well, everything was rocking along really fine until I got to the barrel to stock match up and when I looked at the hammer to nipple alignment something was off, way off. The hammer cup was coming down left of center about an 1/8 of an inch. I had the lock in pretty tight so I loosened the screws up a little and it brought it over some but it's still not centered.
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So my question is should I add wood in the cut out underneath the lock which would seem like a lot of work to get perfectly level or what? This would bring the whole lock out more to center up but would make the lock stick out past the stock.
Another problem I have is when I have the tang bolt screwed to the trigger mechanism with the barrel mounted to the gun, after I pull the tenon the barrel won't lift out like I think it's supposed to and I can't put it back in with the same scenario.

I know these are probably amateurish questions but I'd like to do it right. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 05:52:30 PM by Ky-Flinter »

rfd

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2016, 03:29:56 PM »
what yer experiencing is typical of the spanish guns - lack of quality control, and why they're so cheap.

it can be fixed, i've done it.  take off the hammer, vise it, heat it with a propane torch and use vise grips and/or a hammer to bend/bang it into correct position.  won't take much effort as it appears it's off only by a little.  this will remove the color case look and turn the metal into a straw color.  you can re-blue it or leave it.

it, like all the other offshore guns (for the most part) have patent breeches, so you'll need a .22 brush and patch on yer cleaning rod to clean out the ante-chamber.  if at all possible, remove all threaded parts and lube with anti-seize, to make life easier later on.  good luck with the gun.

oh, the hooked breech ... it's a matter of fit - do whatever you need to do to make it all work well.  this might mean opening up the stock's tang screw hole, or removing other areas of stock wood to make it all fit together well.  once again, the manufacturer just throws a buncha parts in a box and it's up to the builder to make things fit ....... and work.  :)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 03:47:32 PM by rfd »

Offline Roger B

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2016, 05:41:42 PM »
The good news is that percussion guns ain't rocket surgery.  All the hammer has to do is pop the cap, and a lot of "high end" percussion guns aren't dead centered either.  Pop some caps on the thing, and if it works every time without binding or sticking, you're gold. Kits are for learning and even some expensive ones have built in problems.
Roger B.
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Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2016, 08:21:45 PM »
Hi Jacknet,

First, welcome to ALR.  You are in the right place for building help.

So my question is should I add wood in the cut out underneath the lock which would seem like a lot of work to get perfectly level or what?

Adding wood to space the lock out is not a good solution.  The back face of the lock plate should be flat against the side of the barrel.  Roger's advice to try popping some caps is on the money.  The picture you provided looks like the hammer may work as is.  If not, heat and bend as rfd suggested.

Another problem I have is when I have the tang bolt screwed to the trigger mechanism with the barrel mounted to the gun, after I pull the tenon the barrel won't lift out like I think it's supposed to and I can't put it back in with the same scenario.

From your picture it appears the drum is contacting the lock plate preventing barrel installation.  Also in the picture, unless it’s distorted by the camera angle, it appears the horizontal flat area of the lock plate that is forward of the drum is a little higher than the plane of the wood ahead of it.  See the picture below.  The top of that area of the lock plate should be in the same plane as the wood.  If you file the lock plate flush with the wood, that may give you enough room to install and remove the barrel using the hooked breech.



I hope you enjoy your time on ALR.  Gun building is addictive.  Have you thought about your next project?

-Ron  
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 08:23:01 PM by Ky-Flinter »
Ron Winfield

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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2016, 11:10:33 PM »
Hi all. After many weeks of reading this great forum for BP I'm going to try and post a question. I'm building a Traditions St. Louis Hawken kit which I'm not sure if kits are accepted here in the Gun Building section so let me know if I'm in the wrong forum topic.
I read all the instructions, ordered the staining and blueing kit from Birchwood Casey as per instructions, and am now in the middle of the dry fit. Well, everything was rocking along really fine until I got to the barrel to stock match up and when I looked at the hammer to nipple alignment something was off, way off. The hammer cup was coming down left of center about an 1/8 of an inch. I had the lock in pretty tight so I loosened the screws up a little and it brought it over some but it's still not centered.
[/url]
So my question is should I add wood in the cut out underneath the lock which would seem like a lot of work to get perfectly level or what? This would bring the whole lock out more to center up but would make the lock stick out past the stock.
Another problem I have is when I have the tang bolt screwed to the trigger mechanism with the barrel mounted to the gun, after I pull the tenon the barrel won't lift out like I think it's supposed to and I can't put it back in with the same scenario.

I know these are probably amateurish questions but I'd like to do it right. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I wouldn't worry about perfect alignment. If the hammer does NOT drag the cap off the nipple when you cock it then
take it out and shoot it.

Bob Roller

Jacknet

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2016, 05:03:24 PM »
The good news is that percussion guns ain't rocket surgery.  All the hammer has to do is pop the cap, and a lot of "high end" percussion guns aren't dead centered either.  Pop some caps on the thing, and if it works every time without binding or sticking, you're gold. Kits are for learning and even some expensive ones have built in problems.
Roger B.
Why didn't I think of that? That's why I joined this forum, to get ideas I probably never would have thought of, so I'll try that Roger, thanks.
Ky-Flinter: I was looking at that last night and wondering about that. I'll file that top part of the lock plate and I'll bet it will slide right in.
Thanks guys, appreciate it.
Another question I have is I unscrewed the two screws on the back of the lock plate that give extra metal to the boltster rest and could not take that piece of metal off. Is it welded or something. What is the purpose of the screws?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 05:08:27 PM by Jacknet »

Offline Dave B

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2016, 07:36:02 PM »
Just use the round end of a 3/8" box end wrench to bend your hammer after heating the neck with your propane torch. you just slip the round portion over the hammer face end and tweek it when red hot. lined jaws in the vice are helpful, aluminium brass or copper. with regard to the breach bolster fit. When the barrel and standing  breach fit together. Do they match perfectly or is there a slight gap on the bottom side of the barrel and standing breach face? It should be flush no space between them. Not seeing the lock and bolster fit once the barrel is in place its hard to know but if the bolster is hard against the front of the cutout in the lock plate and you have a gap at the back and bottom it would indicate you need to move the standing breach back a bit . doing so would allow the barrel to seat fully and  tip clear with out catching on the front lip of the lock notch.
Dave Blaisdell

Jacknet

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2016, 03:19:24 PM »
Dave - Someone told me if I heat it to red-hot I could ruin the temper. Is that true? And what does that mean? Also, as it stands when dry fit together the bolster fits perfectly in the cut out of the lock plate with a very slight gap at the bottom of the bolster. I read somewhere that that is what you want. You say it should be tight, so I'm a little confused.

Ky-Flinter: "I hope you enjoy your time on ALR.  Gun building is addictive.  Have you thought about your next project"?
I look forward to being on ALR and I'm already addicted. Next project? First of all I'd like to get through this one and do a good job on my Hawken kit. Fortunately I have some BP shooters in my carving club but they're not builders. I've been a wood worker for over 10 years now and have a nice shop for that, but have not done any metal work. I'd like to copy the stock of this Hawken's to see if I can make one from scratch (sans CNC). I have some nice chunks of walnut I've been waiting for an excuse to cut into. I've been reading a lot on here which is fascinating. I'd have to buy the metal parts first so I would know how to shape my stock. Also curious what you alls thoughts are on full stock Hawkens vs. half-stock?

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2016, 09:38:00 PM »
I try to stay out of these discussions, But here goes
 I commend your desire to scratch build a Rifle
 However I do not recommend copying the Traditions stock
  Do yourself a favor and at least look at some pictures of a real Hawken to see what one looks like. They missed the architecture quite a bit. I also recommend you use a patent breech instead of the drum and nipple system they use.
Several good builders on this site that can guide you
Don

Jacknet

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2016, 09:59:38 PM »
I concur Don. And I really want a more authentic Hawkens rifle. Do they make plans for the stocks somewhere.

Offline Dave B

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2016, 08:05:21 AM »
If your heating the hammer back at the junction of the neck and thumb piece it shouldn't hurt the face of the hammer. Quench when done. It will mess up those pretty colors however. Never had one break on the three CVA hammers I have bent. Some one says a gap there is a good thing? :o  The bottom of the drum should be supported by the lock bolster cut out. If you have  a gap under the drum between it and the lock plate,  it may not cause trouble now but down the road you may get a fractured thread and blow out the drum at some point. Not something I recommend.
Dave Blaisdell

rfd

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2016, 02:08:58 PM »
i've done the hammer heat/bend a few times, this was the last one ...



pulled off the hammer, vised it, measured the amount of bend deflection needed, heated to cherry red, bent it ...



mo' bettah ...


Jacknet

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2016, 02:28:34 PM »
If your heating the hammer back at the junction of the neck and thumb piece it shouldn't hurt the face of the hammer. Quench when done. It will mess up those pretty colors however. Never had one break on the three CVA hammers I have bent. Some one says a gap there is a good thing? :o  The bottom of the drum should be supported by the lock bolster cut out. If you have  a gap under the drum between it and the lock plate,  it may not cause trouble now but down the road you may get a fractured thread and blow out the drum at some point. Not something I recommend.
Thanks again Dave. I'll try the heating. Concerning the bottom of the drum: So, can the drum be screwed out? Is that the "threads" you're speaking of? This also brings up another question. The hook in the back of the barrel also appears to be screwed in. I tried to unscrew it but did not bear down on it too hard. Didn't want to break anything. It would be nice if it came out though for cleaning. As a follow up: I did try shooting some caps and with the hammer slightly off center it fired everytime and I had no trouble getting the spent cap out. So do I really need to heat and bend over?
RFD: Thanks for the nice pics. Do I really need to go through that though if it works? Also, what kind of breech is that. Doesn't look anything like mine and I'll bet it's not from a kit.

rfd

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2016, 02:44:08 PM »
... RFD: Thanks for the nice pics. Do I really need to go through that though if it works? Also, what kind of breech is that. Doesn't look anything like mine and I'll bet it's not from a kit.

that rifle was a .50 hawken investarms kit sold by DGW.  investarms are rebranded as lyman, cabelas, dixie and others.  the breech is a hooked tang, just like all the other offshore cheap production "hawken" rifles from italy and spain.

"Do I really need to go through that though if it works?" depends on yer definition of the word "works". 

sure, it's fine to have the hammer misaligned a tad and yet still reliably bang off a cap.  not good enuf for me, however.  i want the hammer cup to strike the nipple as squarely as possible because that will mean a good hit on the cap each time and less wear to the nipple and the hammer.  yers is off a tad whereas mine was off a lot.  you'll have no problem heating/bending the hammer to align well.  your call.   

Offline Daryl

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2016, 09:12:10 PM »
When the hammer hits the top surface of the nipple, the contacting surface needs to be FLAT to the top of the nipple.  If the hammer hits the nipple on a slant, it will allow a burst of flame out the non-contacting edge, which in turn causes a blast of flame out the nipple's flash channel - THIS blast of flame assists in eroding the edges of the hole, wearing out the nipple's flash channel, prematurely. A tiny 'puff' is normal to pen the cap for removal. A blast is not good.
Hopefully, that lock has a leaf spring.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 09:12:28 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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rfd

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2016, 09:25:44 PM »
from all the cheap offshore cap rifles i've seen, and that's been in the many dozens over the decades, i'd say maybe 10% of the hammers hit the cap square.  it is what it is.  not at all good ... but the guns are cheap.  most of those locks also use coiled main springs, as did the one i worked on in the DGW kit.

Offline Roger B

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2016, 10:22:39 PM »
Almost all of us started out with less than authentic rifles; many of them kit guns.   We built those guns to the best of our ability (some very well) and learned to shoot black powder with them.  After that, we wanted something better and more authentic and eventually worked up to what we have now.  If I were in your position (again) I would build the rifle to look as nice, be as safe, and shoot as well as it can.  Don't worry overly about authenticity or incredible workmanship because you just can't get a work of art out of your kit and it will never attain great monetary value.  Assemble and finish it to the best of your ability and then go have fun with it.  After you learn the basics of black powder, get some better ideas about what you really want, and put back some money for your "next rifle" (and there will always be a "next rifle"), you can go to the "next level" (and there will always be a "next level").  What I'm getting at here is that if you agonize too much over your first rifle, it takes all of the fun out of it and winds up frustrating you to the point that you might not want a second rifle. 
Roger B.
Never underestimate the sheer destructive power of a minimally skilled, but highly motivated man with tools.

rfd

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2016, 10:25:58 PM »
Almost all of us started out with less than authentic rifles; many of them kit guns.   We built those guns to the best of our ability (some very well) and learned to shoot black powder with them.  After that, we wanted something better and more authentic and eventually worked up to what we have now.  If I were in your position (again) I would build the rifle to look as nice, be as safe, and shoot as well as it can.  Don't worry overly about authenticity or incredible workmanship because you just can't get a work of art out of your kit and it will never attain great monetary value.  Assemble and finish it to the best of your ability and then go have fun with it.  After you learn the basics of black powder, get some better ideas about what you really want, and put back some money for your "next rifle" (and there will always be a "next rifle"), you can go to the "next level" (and there will always be a "next level").  What I'm getting at here is that if you agonize too much over your first rifle, it takes all of the fun out of it and winds up frustrating you to the point that you might not want a second rifle. 
Roger B.

right on the money, sir!

Smoketown

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2016, 10:54:00 PM »
And exactly what’s wrong with ‘coil springs’?

I’ve had one or more of almost every “commercial Hawken” made … 

I still have my 72 vintage T/C Hawken caplock as it has been the most reliable and accurate of the bunch.

I just got an un-fired T/C Hawken flintlock kit that was started by someone more ham-handed than me.
When it gets finished it will be my ‘boat gun’ … I won’t care [as much] if/when it falls into the drink.

Enjoy your build and re-read what Roger B wrote, there is much wisdom there.

Cheers,
Smoketown

PS
Because I have NO talent for working with wood, my "authentic" rifles are built by real craftsmen. ;)

rfd

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2016, 12:19:31 AM »
not a thing wrong with a coil main spring, dunno where you read that.

Jacknet

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2016, 12:36:16 AM »
Thanks a lot guys. I'll have a progress report tonight. Really good advice here. I'm glad I joined.

Jacknet

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2016, 04:27:01 AM »
Almost done.



I'm having trouble aligning the barrel. Of course being a rookie I'm not sure what a good shooting alignment is. My barrel looks to be sloping down hill.



When resting all the way down in the drum cradle of the lock plate:



Which causes the barrel to sit a little bit about the breech/tang area:



Should I waller out the lock plate cradle for the drum? Or is it aligned enough to go shootin'? I got it to rest tight against the nose cap by grinding out the inside of it and the barrel rests pretty nicely in the channel of the stock.



Please advise.


Offline Roger B

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2016, 11:49:14 PM »
I would gently and slowly relieve drum notch until things line up.  You want the drum to rest touching the notch for best safety.  If it doesn't, then the drum has to absorb all the energy from the hammer blow and may eventually loosen it, creating a dangerous condition. I blew a drum out about two years ago and still thank the Lord that no one was shooting next to me.  That was out of a 1 inch .40 caliber barrel with plenty of meat to hold it in.
Roger B.
Never underestimate the sheer destructive power of a minimally skilled, but highly motivated man with tools.

Jacknet

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2016, 05:14:28 PM »
Thanks for explaining that. I never really understood what others were trying to tell me. I'm fixin' to stain the stock so I'll let you guys see it when I'm done.
I have a quick photobucket question. You may have noticed my earlier photos links appear busted. And my latest pics are good. Does anyone know the fix for this? Thanks

Offline Keb

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Re: Hawken kit build question:
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2016, 05:59:05 PM »
You must have moved them. I think this is them. (DSC_1089.jpg & DSC_1087.jpg)





« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 05:59:35 PM by Keb »