Deciding on "pattern"

[Wolfshead]

I have purchased a Isaac Haines parts assembly from Jim Chambers, and I am expecting it any week now.
My question is how does one decide what pattern should you make? More specifically concerning carving.
Buchele, Shumway, and Alexander wrote in their book "Recreating The American Longrifle", "It is well to give a good deal of thought to the kind of rifle one intends to build before plunging in with saw, rasp, and gouge."
Let me try to explain what I am seeking.
I want to keep to the Lancaster style, in architecture but giving it a little original flair to it.
I would like it to continue to be "period correct" so to speak, but (at this time) don't want to copy an original.
I have searched for the last two days on this site to get some thoughts on this and didn't really find anything that really touched on it , in my mind, this way.
What do you do to come up with your design specifically for carving patterns and such?
I know most is styled after Rococo, (and Baroque?)
I have a couple of books that have the Masters in them so I have been studying those.
I am new to this, I do realize I have a lot to do BEFORE it get to this point, and I know this sounds like putting the cart before the horse, but I like to have an image in my mind on how things may look before I start.
So,  what do you do to put together designs for a rifle you would be working on?
What are some of the things, ideas, tips, you use to get a design?
Any thoughts and or opinions will be greatly appreciated!

[Cory Joe Stewart]

As you start to look at a number of patterns they will start to merge together in your mind.  Look at the different patterns and make note of what it is you like about it.  Then take those elements and merge then.  It is difficult to not have some original flair to something.  It is much more difficult to make an exact copy.  I would suggest keeping you studies for this project to a specific style.  That way it can be unique, but still fit. 

Cory Joe Stewart

[n stephenson]

Wolfshead, sometimes I like to look through my gun books and find a design that I like. Then I will modify the design a little hear and there to make it different . The one thing that I`d like to point out though is I like to try to keep the designs from the proximity of the area of the gun I`m building . Maybe that didn't make sense so I`ll state it like this . I don`t like to put decoration from a Maryland built gun on a rifle from western Pa. Not that there is anything wrong with it I just don`t want a knowledgeable builder seeing one of my guns somewhere and going "what is he doing with Dickert carving on a rifle by Verner"  I realize that you are probably talking about creating your own designs . Sometimes a piece of a design can be used to create your own. I don`t know if this helps any or not. But good luck on your build.  Nathan   I think I just repeated basically what Cory Joe said Sorry

[PPatch]

Cory Joe is spot on with his remarks. It is good that you are considering, researching, what you'll eventually carve. My approach when building one of Jim's Lancaster style kits was to search for examples of the baroque style and sketch them over and over again in order to learn how they worked, to "absorb" the intricacies if you will.

Here, although I do not own a copy, is a link to a book that looks interesting - "Book of Lancaster Carving Patterns" by a Ms Warren-Bicio, 108 pages.

http://historicalarmsmaker.com/#!/Book-of-Lancaster-Carving-Patterns/p/61511589/category=17849198

I also found this YouTube video helpful:

Also: Jim Kibler sells a carving "kit" that includes a book on technique, and a try stock. You can find it on his website. There was one for sale her on ALR not long ago.

You will want to know exactly how you are going to proceed once you come to penciling your designs on the stock, to have practiced the design (pattern) to the point that you will know it inside out. When I was learning the patterns I also did some practice carvings on poplar planks that I had planed with a curvature on one face in order to become familiar with the carving tools. poplar is not ideal, if you have some hard maple to play with it would be better.

Have fun, good luck.

dave

[smylee grouch]

I have the book by Bicio on Lancaster carving and it would be my choice in your situation as it has several Haines rifles and many other Lancaster makers guns to chose from for carving and some engraving too.

[Mike Brooks]

I suppose if I were building an I sac haines kit I'd be looking at Isac Haines rifles for ideas.

[54ball]

 Most of that info about planning is for building from a blank. Jim Chambers has done most of that for you.
 If this is your first or one of your first, just concentrate on building the rifle correctly first. It's going to be hard enough as it is. Not really difficult per say but incredibly teduis in every step.
 So rifle first...decoration later.

 I have seen many new builder made rifles where the carving was poor on an otherwise good rifle. It takes away from it.
 If you decide to decorate keep it simple. Do simple forestock and buttstock moulding lines...beavertail lock panes if you are up to it.

 If you do decide to add some Rococo perfect it first on practice pieces of wood.
 Now if you are an accomplished carver...disregard.

[Wolfshead]

Gentlemen,
Thank you very much for your replies!
I do have Shumway's "Rifles of Colonial America" and also Susanne Warren-Bicio's book
I have been pouring over them and over them. They compliment each other in my opinion as one is photos and the other drawings. Bicio is a student to The Golden Mean which I know was a topic of discussion here a while back.
I am planning on keeping with the Lancaster style, as I certainly don't want to have a rifle from 3 or 4 different schools.
I will take all your advice and see what I can come up with
Just figured while I was waiting for the kit to arrive in would get some drawings on paper and possibly some practice in.
Patch thank you for the book advice (I have it and it is really quite good) and the YouTube video it will help a lot.
Mike, I will especially take your advice to heart - never would have thought of that!!
54ball you mentioned my greatest fear, having a good rifle ruined by poor carving.
You all have been helpful.
It is greatly appreciated!!

[L. Akers]

My 2cents--if you have never done any carving Issac Haines is not a good place to start.  He's way ahead of you in ability.  For your first attempt keep the design very simple and you'll be happier with the result.  After a dozen or so rifles (or lots of carving practice) you might be ready to try to emulate Haines and be satisfied with your work.

[54ball]

54ball you mentioned my greatest fear, having a good rifle ruined by poor carving.

 Let me clarify, It takes away from a good rifle not ruins it. A good well built rifle will always be a good rifle despite mistakes in decoration. Now if the rifle has conservative, simple and very carefully done period decoration even if it does not come out perfect, IMHO it will work out on a well built rifle and may add some folkish charm. Just try to do your absolute best.

 On the other hand....... A poorly built rifle with stellar carving will always be a poorly built rifle.

 So rifle first...decoration second.

 I'm an apprentice. I have built one Southern rifle and worked on the rough assembly of others of all types in the shop. Personally I feel I'm not ready for full house Rococo carving but I do think with care I could do cheek piece moulding, beavertail lock panels, forestock moulding and maybe even some stuff around the tang. On a Penn Rifle these features are or help accent the architecture.

 I chose a plain Southern rifle because of the architecture. That and function is all they have so the basics in construction and architecture have to be good on a rifle like that. It has to be good on all rifles.

 I come from an automotive background. When starting a project it's easy to get caught up or...maybe even distracted by paint, upholstery, whitewall tires and chrome wheels. You know, the finish stuff. Meanwhile the car is a pile of rusty parts. The car has to be built and built right before all that stuff.

 If you want to attempt carving, by all means do it. It's how we all learn but make sure the rifle is built right first.
 
P. S. Look at this rifle...beautiful stock work with great features.http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=42130.msg410104#msg410104

[Wolfshead]

54ball you mentioned my greatest fear, having a good rifle ruined by poor carving.

 Let me clarify, It takes away from a good rifle not ruins it. A good well built rifle will always be a good rifle despite mistakes in decoration. Now if the rifle has conservative, simple and very carefully done period decoration even if it does not come out perfect, IMHO it will work out on a well built rifle and may add some folkish charm. Just try to do your absolute best.

 On the other hand....... A poorly built rifle with stellar carving will always be a poorly built rifle.

 So rifle first...decoration second.

 I'm an apprentice. I have built one Southern rifle and worked on the rough assembly of others of all types in the shop. Personally I feel I'm not ready for full house Rococo carving but I do think with care I could do cheek piece moulding, beavertail lock panels, forestock moulding and maybe even some stuff around the tang. On a Penn Rifle these features are or help accent the architecture.

 I chose a plain Southern rifle because of the architecture. That and function is all they have so the basics in construction and architecture have to be good on a rifle like that. It has to be good on all rifles.

 I come from an automotive background. When starting a project it's easy to get caught up or...maybe even distracted by paint, upholstery, whitewall tires and chrome wheels. You know, the finish stuff. Meanwhile the car is a pile of rusty parts. The car has to be built and built right before all that stuff.

 If you want to attempt carving, by all means do it. It's how we all learn but make sure the rifle is built right first.
 
P. S. Look at this rifle...beautiful stock work with great features.http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=42130.msg410104#msg410104

I really want to thank you!
That is a beautiful rifle indeed!
I appreciate all of the advise, as I understand, that this is quite an undertaking.
I grew up in the country watching Fess Parker play Daniel Boone, wanting to be him.
I have wanted a longrifle since I was a young boy and now I have the opportunity to build one.
I fully intend to take your advise to heart. I plan on going slow and taking my time.
I have done some carving before now and have worked with wood a lot.
i should have been more specific in my original post as I do want to do something conservative, simple and very carefully done.
The gun will come first and when I am satisfied with that then I will move to the carving and "decoration".
Thank you for looking out for me and lending your valuable advice.

My 2cents--if you have never done any carving Issac Haines is not a good place to start.  He's way ahead of you in ability.  For your first attempt keep the design very simple and you'll be happier with the result.  After a dozen or so rifles (or lots of carving practice) you might be ready to try to emulate Haines and be satisfied with your work.

I know that I am now where in the same league as Mr. Haines. That is painfully obvious.
I am just trying to get a conservative, simple rendition that would fit that style and architecture of the kit assembly that I have ordered.
I truely know that it will not rival Isaac Haines just kind of give a simplistic sample to add to the rifle.
Thank you also for your advise it is truely, greatly appreciated.