Frizzen spring alteration.....update

[conquerordie]

Question for all you lock gurus. I am building a TRS lock kit for my fowler. I have the frizzen fitted, shaped, and pivot screw completed. Im now working on the frizzen spring. I drilled the pin that helps hold the spring so that the spring will be centered on the lockplate. The problem is the upper leaf that the frizzen is suppose to ride on, does not contact the frizzen at all. Can I heat and spread apart the spring to create the contact needed? Any ideas for this issue? I would like to try to make this spring work, but don't want to ruin it by altering it. Thanks for you help and ideas.
Greg

[SingleMalt]

If it isn't hardened yet, it shouldn't effect anything. If it were, you'd have to anneal it beforehand.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Polish the spring to finished 'bling'.  Heat it red and bend it to suit.  Harden it and then re-polish it.  Temper it, and leave it as is or re-polish it.  Frizzen springs can to reshaped as required.  But they need to be polished to see the colours when you temper.

[conquerordie]

Yep, I should have noted its in its cast form. I've cleaned it up some, but it has not been heat treated at all. As a second question, do I fit the spring with the frizzen in its opened position, or closed?
Greg

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The frizzen spring must have pressure on the frizzen in the open position, to hold it there and prevent it from snapping back and breaking off the flint.  When the frizzen is closed it further depresses the spring.  But the frizzen spring and the mainspring of the lock must be balanced as they work in concert.  Mainsprings on flintlocks are very stout.

[Acer Saccharum]

The springs in 'as cast' condition can be quite hard. Don't try to bend it without red heat. after you get the shape you want, anneal* it to avoid breaking it, and it is easier to file and polish. Then harden and temper.

*Annealing before hardening normalizes the steel, so it has even grain structure throughout.

[Mark Elliott]

Something as thin as a spring will have to be annealed in an oven, if you want to anneal it.    If just heated to red and let to air cool,  some parts could cool fast enough to air harden.    If you just want to bend it,  always bend under red heat.    When done, harden and temper normally.   Make sure you polish lengthwise, not across.   

[jerrywh]

 If you want to anneal something small and you do not have an oven just place it on a large piece of steel and heat the whole thing. Than let it cool while sitting on top of the large piece. That way it will cool slowly.

[mtlonghunter]

You could also fill the hole in the plate and move the spring screw and keeper pin location.

[conquerordie]

Thank you all for the replies. I heated red and gave it and slight bend. I'm not going to work the spring at all by. But it looks like it will contact correctly now. I do have a heat treat oven that I'll be able to use from this point forward.
Greg

[smart dog]

Hi Greg,
What is the lock (series from TRS?)?  I am a little concerned that the spring did not touch the toe of the frizzen as is.  I hope it does need to be bent upward so much that it contacts the frizzen at a substantial angle.

dave

[Bob Roller]

Polish the spring to finished 'bling'.  Heat it red and bend it to suit.  Harden it and then re-polish it.  Temper it, and leave it as is or re-polish it.  Frizzen springs can to reshaped as required.  But they need to be polished to see the colours when you temper.

This IS correct info. I have no idea how many times I have done this over the decades
I have been making locks. Follow Taylor's advice and you will be OK.

Bob Roller

[boman]

I've built four locks with TRS raw castings. D Taylor and Acer are correct about not bending without heat. You will most likely break it. once you've got it where you want it you will need to repolish it as it will have built up scale from the heat. Then you can do final harden and temper. This is 5160(leaf spring steel) and here's how I harden and temper it. Bring spring to red orange and drop it in plain water at room temp. If you want a perfect hardening temp. stick a ceramic magnet on it towards the bend and when it falls off quench.  Then I heat a pot of lead(old Lyman melting pot) on my kitchen stove till its molten, wait about 5 to 10 min to let the lead really get up to heat and submerse the hardened spring in the lead for about 5 min. The spring gets thru tempered uniformly at the proper temp. this way with out the use of a heattreat oven. You can also use an oxy/ acetylene torch and look for the metallic blue color but its more difficult to to get a uniform heat and temper with this method on larger springs.
One other note. you may have to go thru this process several times; bend harden temper, to get the ideal tension on the frizzen. Also be sure and bring both the spring and especially the toe on the frizzen to a high state of polish to get smooth function on the contact.

Steve

[conquerordie]

Smart dog, can not remember the series number, but it's the Dutch 1710 lock. Believe it or not one been sitting on it for over ten years. I've only built one other TRS lock, the French wall gun lock they make. It was awhile ago, but it seemed to go together a  lot easier than this one. I've just started a work rotation so it won't be until next week sometime that I get to work again on the lock. This lock seems to want to fight me each step of the way. But I'm learning a lot so far. Thanks again for the help.
Greg

[smart dog]

Hi Greg,
The larger the lock, the easier it is to build   I looked at the Dutch lock in the TRS catalog and given the shape of the frizzen spring, heating it and opening the bend a little should do the trick nicely. I would clean up the casting, polish the bearing surface, and fit it such that it is pressing firmly up on the toe of the frizzen when the frizzen is fully open.  Then harden it, polish again and put it in your heat treating oven at 750 degrees F for 1 hour.  Take it out and let air cool  on a block of wood or brick.

dave

[conquerordie]

Dave,
I will follow your instructions the next time I work on it. When I left off, I opened it slightly, and with the frizzen opened, the spring will have tension in the frizzen.  No flopping around. If it's the right amount is still to be seen. Thanks again,
Greg

[conquerordie]

Success! I spread the spring, polished, then tempered at 750 degrees for 1 hour. Worked the spring gently until I could fully work the frizzen. Seemed a little mushy, so went through the steps again, and it feels real good. The lock is complete except the main spring. It's got me scratching my head. I know it has to have some preload, but how do I know the correct location of the main spring without having it touch the toe of the tumbler. I've been following Hemos Dolep lock build in the tutorial section, and just can't wrap my head around this process. Any ideas? Thanks again,
Greg

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

This is such a timely thread!  I just finished assembling a Brown Bess lock for one of our own subscribers, and naturally, there was some spring alteration that was required.
Here's a picture of the frizzen spring for this lock as received and as cast, alongside a second one that is finished and fit to the lock.  You can see that the spring needed to be re-arched on the top leaf and spread so that it engaged the toe of the frizzen with some tension.



How much tension is needed?  Here's a picture of the spring set on the plate but not screwed down, and it shows the amount of compression required to get the screw into it.  This is with the frizzen in the open position.




...and here's one the same but with the frizzen closed.  You can see that the spring is under more compression when the frizzen is closed, than when it is open.



Here's one of the spring fully installed.



And just for the heck of it, here's the whole lock.