Front Trigger Blade Not High Enough

[FlintlockFred]

Need suggestions on how to solve a problem I've encountered with my last two builds. The front trigger blade on the set triggers I am using is not tall enough to engage the sear properly.  There is approximately 1/4" free play before the blade contacts the sear.  I cannot inlet the triggers any deeper into the stock without adversely affecting the lower profile of the stock.  As I see it there are three possible solutions. (1) Reshape/Bend the sear bar on the lock.  (2) Build up the blade on the trigger (which I did previously by silver soldering a steel piece onto the exiting bar).  Make a new front trigger with a higher bar. Has anyone else had this problem and how did you solve it?

[smallpatch]

I've never had one that wasn't tall enough.  Most times you need to remove metal to get enough clearance to function properly. 
The only answer I see is to solder a small piece atop the front trigger blade.

[smylee grouch]

I don't think any of the several that I have are "high enough" to touch the sear and I don't care as the rear trigger is the one that hits the sear, I never use the front trigger alone to fire the guns.

[P.Bigham]

 Seen a Herschel House Rifle once that had the set triggers set deeper in the stock than the profile of the rifle.

[Bob Roller]

I've never had one that wasn't tall enough.  Most times you need to remove metal to get enough clearance to function properly. 
The only answer I see is to solder a small piece atop the front trigger blade.

I agree with the silver soldering of a strip of brass or steel on the front trigger release bar.
I also agree with the idea of laying out all the components in the order they will be used and
see what the dimensions really are before I start to cut. Bending a sear is botched work and
some locks have sears made of 0-1 oil hardened and may not tolerate bending.

Bob Roller

[Lucky R A]

      There are a number of solutions to your problem.  1st. make sure the architecture for you rifle is correct.  It is rare that the standard height Davis # 4 DST are not high enough to work well in most applications.  Check originals rifles of the type that you are trying to emulate.  Most originals are quite flat across the bottom with a minimal lock molding.   2nd. If in fact you do need a higher trigger blade, Davis does supple his # 4 with high blades.  These were made for Jim Chambers kits and I believe are now an inventory item. 3rd.  Don't expect the front trigger on DST to have the same crisp take up of a well constructed single trigger.  The function of the front trigger is to fire the piece when the triggers is set, and to allow you to safely let down the hammer from full or half cock w/o setting the trigger.  Yes, you can fire the gun with the front trigger, but
the pull will be less than optimal.  Good luck with your solution, problem solving is half of gun building.   
Best wishes
Ron

[FlintlockFred]

Thanks guys.  I appreciate the insights.  Perhaps I am not taking my forearm to wrist down far enough to allow me to inlet the triggers sufficiently.  I'll have to relook at that.  My lines along the bottom have always been flat and parallel with the line of the barrel.  Perhaps I'm just too "thick" from the top of the barrel to the bottom of the forearm.  I should also take a bit more time analyzing my layout before I begin inletting.  While I usually punch holes in paper and very seldom fire the rifle without setting the trigger, I have done so several times while hunting.  It is also much easier to de-cock using the front trigger.  So I am a fan of DSTs.  I like to have about 1/16 to 3/32 take-up (unset) on the front trigger.  I used L&Rs on a couple of builds several years ago and did not have this problem.  The last three builds have been Davis triggers, with two recent instances of what I consider too much take-up.  I've been doing this off and on for many years.  Since I've retired, I'm getting more involved again.  I sincerely appreciate all the good advice offered by the members of this group.

Fred

[54ball]

 Layout is important but that boat has sailed for you as did for me on my first real rifle.

 Firstly......
 I personally can live with a long pull on the front trigger. What I can't live with is a miserable and heavy break after the long pull.
 If the front trigger trips the lock time after time but is heavy, most of that can be overcome by tuning the lock. You need to tune the lock anyway for optimal pull. Caution... It's real easy to go too far. Maybe an experienced hand is best here. The difference between just right and too far is Oh so slight. It's a balancing act. This is real gunsmithing.
 There is no reason why the front trigger on a double lever set, should not have a good decent pull. Again a long pull to take up the slack is OK but it should have a good crisp break after that long pull, A hunting trigger.
 So if it trips the lock reliably but with a heavy pull, consider tuning the lock.

 Secondly...
 There's a lot of tuning you can to the triggers themselves. Polishing the foot of the mainspring, polishing all the friction surfaces and tuning it just right. There's a lot of adjustment just in the trigger's mainspring tension. So the triggers can and need to be tuned as well. Caution... Be careful with the notches just like you did with tuning the lock. It's easy to go too far.
 
 Try this and you may be surprised.

 Botched Gunsmithing... Bent sears and soldered up trigger plates, choose your poison.
 Don't use brass for this "fix". Both bending sear and soldering on material bespeak of covering a mistake and fixing a boo boo.
 I chose to bend the sear. I didn't like it but... It must be done red hot with a quench ready and it is a compound bend. The jaws of the vice act as a heat sink so the sear cog should be OK. It's a good idea to lay out and know how far you need to go. And.... sears are replaceable .
 I don't liker either one of those fixes but it is my personal rifle. For a customer, this is substandard work.
 This why I think a long but decent trigger is better than either one of these options.

 Lastly....

 Trigger position and new parts.
 Are the triggers in position for optimal operation? Does the sear split the V between the trigger blades? The adjustment screw should be straight below the sear bar. If not, you can always move the triggers fore and aft and repair the inlet if you need to. You can also sink the triggers in their inlet a little and still be OK.
 Making a new front trigger...what a pain...Honestly I would consider building a new or buying another set, maybe a single lever double set..but that style was really the correct type for my rifle.

[bob in the woods]

As Ron mentioned, you can simply purchase a set of triggers from Jim Chambers. They have taller bars than the normal Davis sets.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

For inquiries such as this, a picture of the rifle's profile through the lock would tell the whole story, and real solutions might be forthcoming.  But these fellows have hit on all of the possible scenarios and their solutions.  Can you give us a picture please?

[David Rase]

On my latest build my client requested a 15" length of pull.  Since this rifle had such a long length of pull, to keep everything proportioned, I increased the height of the wrist by 1/8".  In doing so, I ended up needing to add risers to the Davis double set triggers to get everything to work properly and not rattle around.  Each riser was 3/16" tall and cut from a 1/16" thick piece of 1018 mild steel.  They were then silver soldered to the Davis knives using easy (1240 to 1325 degree fahrenheit) solder. The pictures below show the triggers with the risers added.  Once added, I filed off the tops of the risers until I had just a bit ( .010" to .015") of play.  These triggers still need to be polished and the working surfaces hardened and tempered.

[greybeard]

Dave.  How do you harden and temper the triggers that have been silver soldered> ?
Bob

[FlintlockFred]

D. Taylor - You are right... a picture would help the analysis of my problem.  I have attempted to take a couple which show the architecture of the stock in the area of the lock and triggers and forearm but I am not smart enough to attach them to the post!  I'll figure it out and add them to the next post.


Dave - That is exactly how I solved the problem with my last build.  I added a 1/16" riser which I silver soldered into place.  Wanted to make sure I wasn't overlooking another "fix" due to my inexperience.  Thanks for your reply.

Fred

[David Rase]

Dave.  How do you harden and temper the triggers that have been silver soldered> ?
Bob

Bob,
I will concentrate the heat on the working/engagement surfaces only.  I will be able to heat and oil quench those small areas without affecting the silver soldered area.
David

[greybeard]

That's cool Dave. Thanks.  I was thinking off case hardening.
     Bob

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Davis triggers are made of some pretty hard stuff.  I wouldn't water quench 'em Bob!!

[David Rase]

Davis triggers are made of some pretty hard stuff.  I wouldn't water quench 'em Bob!!

You can say that again Taylor.  That's why a spot hardening/tempering will work just fine.  In order to cut the trigger shoes off of both the triggers to make the shoe modifications, I had to heat the pieces red hot, let them cool over night in a container of wood ashes that were pre-heated with a warm bar prior to putting the triggers in to soak. 
David

[David Rase]

That's cool Dave. Thanks.  I was thinking off case hardening.
     Bob

Bob,
I could not case harden these triggers even if I wanted to since both original trigger shoes have been cut off and new ones silver soldered to the knives.  American Pioneer Video did a "Gunsmiths Companion" series a few years back featuring Frank House who outlined the trigger shoe modification.
David

[FlintlockFred]

I have attempted to put a couple of pictures of the stock and triggers on this post for you to see the positioning.  In the current position, I have about 3/8 inch of trigger play before the blade touches the sear. - Fred

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p0s6q34ov5s5pmm/AACGWVtJ-tNSN7oDE5M1FX-qa?dl=0

[Mark Elliott]

It is hard to tell from the photos, but it looks to me like the tail of the lock might be a little too high.    That, or you have an extreme amount of drop in the butt that is pulling down the bottom line of the stock.   What is the drop and pull on that rifle?

In any event,  I think the solution is the one that has already been given to heighten the blades.

[Dennis Glazener]

It looks to me like the barrel could go deeper into the stock which would allow the lock to drop down the same amount. Like Mark said the tail of the lock may be a little high.

But, unless I am wrong you should be able to take quite a bit of wood off the underside of the stock. I usually have a 1/16" or less thickness under the RR hole and let that extend under the lock and the underside of the wrist.
Dennis

[FlintlockFred]

Mark - The drop at the heel is 2 1/2".  The butt plate is 5".  I can probably inlet a wee bit more on the rear of the trigger plate and still retain the line.  I may have to bend the trigger plate just a bit to keep the front from rotating upward.  The pull is 13 3/4".

I scribed a line on the center of the barrel flat and the top of the pan on my lock sits right on that line.  Should I have dropped it off the line on the rear a little to bring the tail of the lock down when I did my inletting?

Dennis - I am right at 1/8" between the bottom of the ramrod hole and the bottom surface of the forearm.  I can get a bit deeper on my trigger mortise then remove the excess wood but I didn't want to get too thin.

Thank you both for your comments.  At least no one has told me that my problem is because I put the lock on the wrong side! - Fred

[Mark Elliott]

That is not a lot of drop or pull.   I don't understand why the toe line seems so low.    As to wood on the forearm,  1/16" is enough wood to have between the ramrod hole and the bottom of the forearm.   Usually the lift in the rear thimble dictates this.   As to the tail of the lock, you can rotate the lock around the touch hole.    Generally, the tail of the lock should be below the middle line of the wrist down to 1/3 of the height of the wrist.    Could you post a photo of the entire back half of the rifle from the rear entry to the butt as straight on as possible?   I would like to see that entire bottom line.   It seems that something just isn't right there.

 

[David Rase]

After looking at your first photo, it is obvious that you cannot move the tail of the lock any lower since it is already inlet.  What you can do is edit the top side of the rear lock panel.  You can remove some wood on the top which will lower the point a bit giving a better illusion of being closer to the center of the wrist.  You can further enhance the architecture of the wrist and lock panel when you carve your lock moldings by continuing a downward flow of the rear beavertail.  You are not so far off that you can't fool the eye with a bit of line editing.  The entire top of your lock panel is still very thick.  Thinning this panel will also give the illusion of a lower lock.
David