kit vs. blank

[StevenV]

My question is to build a gun from "scratch" vs kit? I have built a dozen guns all from scratch/blanks. I make the thimbles, side plate, and inlet the barrel myself on milling machine for straight and have a good friend inlet swamped barrels using duplicating routers. The rest of the gun is by hand , butt plate/trigger guard Reeves Goehring, locks Chambers. By starting from a kit vs. scratch/blank will I save much time with the kit. This gun either from kit or blank will be pretty much plane Jane no carving , engraving. The only embellishment might be an engraved hunters star. Time difference kit vs. scratch   ??   
 
Thanks in advance for you thoughts                  Steve

[Mauser06]

I won't pretend to be very knowledgeable on the subject...



But I know there are differences in what a kit entails.  Jim Kimblers kit gun for example is a totally different animal than what you'd get from say TOTW as a "kit".

[rsells]

I agree with Mauser06.  There are differences in kit or component parts sets.  I build the majority of my rifles from scratch.  However, ever now and again I will take on a job for someone who wants a parts set assembled.  Nearly all the time, I end up wishing I never made the deal because I end up working around things on the stock that I don't like.   If I would have been building the rifle from scratch, I would have got it done at least in the same amount of time on a plane rifle without the agrivation of working around someone else work.  There are component sets out there that are really good and would not be an issue. 
                                                                                                        Roger Sells

[StevenV]

Thanks already for some input. To help with the answer I forgot to include one very important point. The kit will come from  the top of the top shelf list of kit suppliers. I am willing to spend the money to get the best. I already deal with these suppliers for parts and input when building from scratch. I see no need to single out by name because I am very thankful to all suppliers that help/keep us builders supplied with parts to loose ourselfs in this priceless pastime. So by using a "top shelf " kit is there much time saved with the kit over scratch build?            Steve

[PPatch]

From my perspective a top shelf kit gun goes together, start to finish, quicker than beginning from a blank.

dave

[Mike Brooks]

For me, a kit and a gun from a blank takes about the same amount of time. Kibler's kits excepted.

[Joe S.]

While I'm still working on my first and my input on this subject is not from experience on both.I do find "kits" to present some challenges but as I'm doing the build most are from not doing certain things before and along with it the confidence in doing them.While I know I can do it there's always that little dought knowing you only get one shot at doing right,like wedges,drilling some of the holes ect.Getting the lock lined up with the proper spot on the barrel was a little tricky,again self inflicted,didn't have my long tang quite bent to the proper angle and after doing it it changed things abit in relation to where the barrel ended up.Things will be fine and am learning a lot with a "kit" and feel with the right set of tools a plank build will go smoother in some respects.I figure if you can make it all work on a pre-carve.........I know its really not what origin poster is asking but thought I would ad my two cents

[galudwig]

Depends on whose kit you are talking about. For example, Chambers kits are "top shelf" but they make no bones about telling people that their kits still require lots of additional hand work to assemble everything properly.  Then their are Jim Kibler's kits which are on the shelf right above the top. CNC machining, quality parts, and attention to detail have led to reports of people finishing his kit guns in as little as three days.

From my perspective, I'd feel like I was regressing by building kit guns after achieving some degree of mastery over all the "hard work" that goes along with building from a blank.  I've built a couple guns from kits and now that I am building from blanks I'm just not interested in going back. 

You have control over some key building aspects that you don't always have with kits. If you read through the archives on kit builds on this forum, two big issues always come up with pre-carved stocks; lock placement & web thickness. These are two things that you either have to live with or fix with many pre-carves. You can get around lock placement by buying pre-carves not already inletted for the lock (done that).  If the web is too thick, you can always deepen the channel to proper dimensions (done that too). If you have to fix just those two things, are you really saving all that much time? 

Pre-carves are no longer worth the aggravation for me.  I have plenty of that with blanks.   

[Eric Krewson]

I have done two scratch builds and one from a precarve. I found the precarve to have so many flaws in it's shaping that it took me more time to straighten everything out that I could have done my own shaping from a plank.

[deepcreekdale]

I agree with Mike on this, I normally build from the blank, do all the barrel and lock inletting by hand, drill my own ramrod holes etc. I have built a few kits for friends, and didn't  find they saved much time. I also agree that Kiblers and Chambers kits are the exception to that. Besides, when I build from a blank, I get the satisfaction of knowing the customer has a gun that I built, not one that I and someone else built. Not to knock any kit makers or people that choose to build them, it is just more satisfying to me.

[flehto]

I think that the fastest build is from a blank {VS a precarve} that was sent out for the bbl and RR work.  When the bbl/blank  ass'y  is returned, the next step is accurately bandsawing which leaves very little wood to remove.....the greatest amount being the buttstock which is quickly taken down w/  hacksaw and flat chisel.

Have built a few LRs from  part sets and have run into problems ....some more serious than others. Rec'd a Hawken "kit" that had the lock inlet cut in the wrong location...found this after a few wasted hrs were spent. The supplier upped the wood grade to my great satisfaction. Another "kit" was so bad that it was returned  and all monies were refunded, including shipping.

Even the "top kits" had some  lesser problems.....Fred

[oldtravler61]

  To me if you can do everything from scratch an your satisfied with your work. Why bother with a kit. To me your basically assembling someone else's work. Good or bad. If you want to save time. Than Kiblers kit is it.. The gun is basically done for you. Except for staining an metal finish. Basically you could shoot it in the white. It doesn't get any easier than that. Just my 2cents....Oldtravler

[Long John]

Steve,

One cannot answer your question unless she/he knows what your objective is.  Do you build rifles for the joy of creation and the trill of over-coming the challenge posed by turning raw materials/parts into a work of art?   Or, is your objective turning out the planned gun with the minimum of effort in the minimum time?  I am a hobby builder.  It makes no sense to me to pay someone else to have fun for me.  If I were building the gun for pay, as a business, then getting work done by machine for me by others would be a financial necessity.  In that context time is money.

I built 1 gun from a parts set initially purchased by my nephew.  It probably saved me some time.  Inletting a swamped barrel by hand takes me about 4 hours per foot.  making the ramrod groove and drilling the ramrod hole takes another 4 hours.  It adds up quickly.  But I find building from scratch far more rewarding and personally fulfilling. 

So what is your objective, really?  Once you have a clear Idea of your objective your answer will be self-evident.

Best Regards,

John Cholin 

[deepcreekdale]

John said it best. We all have slightly different objectives and goals in our gun making. All are legitimate, none is "better" than the other. I find doing everything by hand very satisfying. After inletting about 70 barrels by hand, I have learned to do it quickly and efficiently, this is rewarding to me. Others find that task boring and have someone else do it. There is no problem with that.  I bet the masters of the old days assigned that task to an apprentice if they could, which might be the same as sending it off for someone else to do!. I find satisfaction in finding the rifle in the blank and knowing I  brought it out, others might wish to recreate a specific gun simply to own and shoot and are happier and more successful with a kit. The end result of both can be a beautiful piece. But your original question is about saving time. With a Chambers, Kibler or other high end kit, I would say yes, you will save time. With some of the mass produced "parts" kits, maybe, maybe not.

[KentSmith]

So much of this is relative.  Taking likes and dislikes out of it, and assuming you have a good blank compared to a well carved stock, I find the pre-carved stock saves me some time compared to a blank of the same gun.  However, it also means I have paid for work I could do and enjoy doing and I am committed to a project narrowly defined by the stock carvers choices.  You can buy a generic Early Lancaster stock (for instance) and build a gun appropriate to that school, you still have to know the details pertinent to the subject and you may find you can not meet some of those objectives because of the model the carver used to work down the stock took a different trail. Generally it saves the barrel inlet and ramrod work plus the roughing out the basic architectural lines, getting the flow right and making a lot of sawdust, work that comes easier and quicker for guys adept at the work from scores of gun builds. So a big time saver for an experienced builder, not necessarily.  A new builder might find a precarve saves them some time and assuming the stock has been carved correctly some mistakes.  But I am laying no bets on this.

Most of my guns are built from blanks.  Every so often I build from a precarve by Dave Keck or Mark Weador who know what they are doing.  I enjoy not having to make so much sawdust and can make the project conform to the limits imposed by the precarved stock. In general though I like the freedom to take a project in a direction different than originally planned and a stock blank affords me that pleasure.

My son has started this hobby and given in to the madness.  His first build started with a blank and he was a bit overwhelmed, but since has built from a pre-carve and seems to prefer the pre-carve mainly because he is still unfamiliar with architectural details of different schools.  He has begun a Lehigh with a precarve then built another from a blank applying what he learned.  Assuming accurate and proper architecture on the precarve leads to some learning this seems to be his way to go.  Others may have differing opinions.

[little joe]

It all depends on your desires you can buy a kit and be assembler  , our buy a pile of parts and a chunk of wood and be a gun stocker or the 3rd option would be like Gusler, Miller and several others and be a gun builder, lock, stock and barrel,

[oldtravler61]

Wonder how many hours it would take. Making the barrel, the lock from scratch an still make a decent profit to stay in business. Oh yeah an grow your own trees for your stocks. Just a thought..Mike   p.s. just messin with yeah