Author Topic: Overdone Originals  (Read 5527 times)

Offline Molly

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Overdone Originals
« on: January 11, 2017, 12:19:09 AM »
As I look around at the world of original rifles one thing seems to hit me.  My personal tastes are leaning toward simply clean works with some modest embellishments and what I would call understated elegance, classy touches and straight forward features.  I understand that any work may reflect the demands of the original customer and I doubt any maker would turn down a job just because they have a vision that the finished product would not reflect well on their skills and style.  I'll liken it to the gal on American Pickers with all the tattoos.  When is "more" overdoing it?   When is another inlay of a circle, moon, acorn, pointing finger, fish, squirrel, etc etc etc just too much.  Was it ever too much back in the day it was made?  Does an excessive number of gaudy features tend to detract from the appeal of and maybe the value of an original work? Does some of this represent the builders boredom with not having enough to do and just continuing adding features at will and at random with no real reason?  There was a day when I thought all or much of the embellishment on a rifle has some deep secret meaning known only to the builder and original owner.  But I'm wondering if it was just a builder who got up one morning and decided to stick another inlay on the thing!

Thoughts?

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Overdone Originals
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2017, 12:39:08 AM »
Some guys like all the parts on their Harley chromed...Some girls leave no part unadorned....
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Overdone Originals
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2017, 03:42:13 AM »
De gustibus non disputandum est.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Molly

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Re: Overdone Originals
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2017, 03:52:07 AM »
Gustus non solum bona, sed etiam stilo et ictum

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Overdone Originals
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2017, 05:03:19 AM »
   Whatever floats your boat.    It's in the eye of the beholder.   Fancy smanchy. Personally only accurate rifles matter. Anything else is the skills of the builder (craftsman ) To each his own...Oldtravler

Offline Molly

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Re: Overdone Originals
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2017, 05:17:15 AM »
I certainly did not make it clear initially but one aspect of the question connects to the style of "excess" by my standard and "value" today. (It was in mind when posted but not so clearly stated.) They were obviously more costly when built but does over the top embellishment equate to higher value in today's market?  I just looked over some prices realized on the Vye auction back in 2015 (?)  Generally more embellished rifles appeared to bring more money than the simple ones but then we have the matter of signed vs unsigned so it's nor clear cut.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Overdone Originals
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2017, 05:20:03 AM »
In objects I find that I like some balance between the form and function of the design and the embellishment thereof. 

In people, I find that Men are from Mars, and Womerns are from Venus* and it gets way more complicated right after that...



*apologies to Dr. Gray (the book) and
credit to Unknown Hinson (the slang).
Hold to the Wind

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Overdone Originals
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2017, 05:25:59 AM »
I certainly did not make it clear initially but one aspect of the question connects to the style of "excess" by my standard and "value" today. (It was in mind when posted but not so clearly stated.) They were obviously more costly when built but does over the top embellishment equate to higher value in today's market?  I just looked over some prices realized on the Vye auction back in 2015 (?)  Generally more embellished rifles appeared to bring more money than the simple ones but then we have the matter of signed vs unsigned so it's nor clear cut.

I think if the maker was able to sell it with a smile, then it was not overdone.  If he had to "eat some hours" to move the item, then it was overdone. 

I'm not a player in the collector market so that's as far as I can "grasp" properly.

>>Someday<< I'm going to notice which section I'm replying to a post in, before I get two posts in!  :-X :o 8) 
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Offline Nordnecker

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Re: Overdone Originals
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2017, 03:47:26 PM »
Way back on Pg 169 (gun building) there is a thread called "Plain rifles" or plain guns. You might want to check it out. It talks about some of the reasons for ornament and lack thereof. I wish I had taken Latin.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Overdone Originals
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2017, 06:04:50 PM »
Abundant inlays are usually found on percussion rifles after the Golden Age. I think many to most early collectors preferred earlier longrifles that were originally flintlock and those generally have carved versus inlay decoration. There are collectors of certain later schools who specialize in highly embellished guns, and others who collect plain or even "plains" rifles or iron mounted Southern styles, preferring the architecture  to speak more than embellishments. So much goes into market value that it's hard to say within a particular school or a single maker, how much embellishment impacts price at any point in time.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 06:05:59 PM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Overdone Originals
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2017, 07:55:29 PM »
With respect to decoration of (new) tomahawks, the late Jerry Gutchess told me "people are magpies"

Offline bgf

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Re: Overdone Originals
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2017, 11:24:16 PM »
My tastes run toward "simplex munditiis" (keeping with the Latin theme:), but just as that once famous phrase is quite open to interpretation, I think there is a wide range of decorative levels that can be pulled off by the right person on a longrifle. 

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: Overdone Originals
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2017, 02:55:56 AM »
....Brings to mind the famous Alfred Farrington Gross rifle.......Blew me away when I first saw it...!!!....My favorite school is that upper East Tennessee style, I must admit that the gun is a bit "overdone", but you have to admire the gunsmith's talent....!!!...Have seen other "plain" rifles by A.F. Gross (my preferred style).., but I'm sure the customer who paid for all that silver embellishment was very happy with the results.....as is the current owner...!!!....It IS a fine rifle.....!!! :D :D :D   

Offline bp

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Re: Overdone Originals
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2017, 03:08:55 AM »
It is darn fortunate for that the interweb has a Latin to English translation function.
Helps us common folk function in higher society. 8)

But yes, taste differ and styles change from person to person, region to region and time to time.

Offline Molly

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Re: Overdone Originals
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2017, 09:10:22 PM »
Something I have noticed on some highly embellished rifles is that many "inlays" are not "inlet" at all.  It seems that this applies to mostly "silver" ornamentation and while it is carefully done, it's actually simply very thin metal which is "tacked" onto the stock.  Often these embellishments are so small in-letting would require a lot of time and effort, many rifles have 20 to 30 such additions.  And some of them seem to me to possible conflict with other aspects of the ornamentation.  So I guess there is also the possibility that the owner(s) after it was made did some home cookin' by adding features such as these.  I cannot point to any specific works right now but I have seen multiple works by a given maker and then run into a signed work which has core characteristics of that maker yet features that just seem are a clear departure from the style they may be known for making. That view is stated thinking of things other than the architecture of the stock.  To my eye, the Gross rifle does not exhibit those features.  While it is highly "decorated" it looks to me as the silver was in fact mostly all inlet and not "nailed" on. The Gross rifle appears to me to have been built with a planned design.  Other works often seem to have elements which were after thoughts.

Analogy:  A young dude buys himself a perfectly made new Honda.  6 months later he has a ground package, low profile tires, a million watt stereo system, blacked out glass, a "spoiler" and purple lights in the wheel wells.  Did the same thing happen to rifles?  I think probably.  SO if such features were post acquired additions might they detract from value?  I think so as well.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 09:11:23 PM by Molly »

Offline Joe S.

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Re: Overdone Originals
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2017, 04:24:55 AM »
it's human nature to personalize some things.You add a bit of yourself so to speak, folk art ect.It can be overdone for sure but to each his own.

Offline TMerkley

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Re: Overdone Originals
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2017, 01:08:07 AM »
It some aspects I feel that some of the decorations were added to hide imperfections in the wood or cover up certain a certain "oops" like when drilling the ramrod hole on the bottom of the stock. :-\