Shredded Patches

[RoaringBull]

I very good friend of mine has a Uberti Hawken rifle that is I believe a .54 cal that he has owned for a very long time. We were discussing our respective smoke poles recently and he stated that he has long had a problem of the Hawken rifle just shredding patches. He said it became so bad that he had downsized the ball and was using two pillow tick patches. What I was wondering is how he could rectify this situation. Someone told him that the barrels on those old Uberti's were just so hard there was probably nothing he could do shy of getting it rebored into a larger caliber.

I told him I would inquire of those more knowledgeable than I.

Thanks in advance.

[Hungry Horse]

I think that gun is actually a .53 cal.(even though the barrel is marked .54) and should use a .520 round ball. The molds for this gun aren't something you are going to find at a garage sale. There are only a couple of mold makers that make this mold. As far as I know none of the big commercial bullet casters offer this ball size.

  Hungry Horse

[OldMtnMan]

He's using at least a .530 ball with .036 in patches. How could he ever get that down a .53 bore?

I agree the bore should be .53 for that gun, but i'm baffled how he can get it loaded with what he's using.

[RoaringBull]

I really dont know for sure what he is loading. The question was how does he smooth the rough, sharp rifling in the barrel?

[WaterFowl]

pull the breach plug...he could then lap or scrub the barrel.
There are so many reasons for a patch to shred..
Material age ,thickness ,lube ,ball size ,crown ,type of powder etc.
With out being there this is a tough call.
Need more detail to help.

[RichG]

if it's the old Santee Fe Hawken , they are .530 and Hornady sells .520 swaged balls. you can try seating and pulling a patched ball and see if the patch is cut. Also short start and pull to see if the patch is being cut while starting. This might steer you in the right direction. Lap or re crown.

[Hungry Horse]

If your friend has an Uberti with rough, sharp, rifleing it the first one I've heard of. This problem has been going on with a bunch of Italian Hawken rifles that use the same barrel as the Santa Fe Hawken. Why nobody ever thought to remark the barrels .53 instead of .54 boggle the mind.

  Hungry Horse

[Smoketown]

Most of the ones that I have seen and shot have had almost NO crowning at the muzzle.

A very sharp and abrupt transition!

I would look there first.

Cheers,
Smoketown

[EC121]

He can scrub the barrel with a Scotchbrite pad and an undersized jag.  Maybe a little oil to help it slide.  This will polish the bore and remove any burrs that might be in it.  I usually do a mini-cone a la Daryl on the muzzle using a needle or chainsaw file to just break/roll the edges of the lands and grooves of the crown.  Then polish it with sandpaper and my thumb or the round end of a screwdriver handle.  Depends on the caliber.  Makes it load easier without affecting accuracy.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

If your friend has an Uberti with rough, sharp, rifleing it the first one I've heard of. This problem has been going on with a bunch of Italian Hawken rifles that use the same barrel as the Santa Fe Hawken. Why nobody ever thought to remark the barrels .53 instead of .54 boggle the mind.

  Hungry Horse

HH:  probably for the same reason Navy Colts are stamped .36 cal when they are truly .38's and Army Colts are stamped .44 when they are truly .45's.  That never made sense to me either.

[little joe]

It would seem to me that if you cannot solve your problem you need some help.We on the board can make suggestions, however  it looks to me like you need  some hands on help. I would seek out the clubs in your area and visit them.  If you  don,t come on as a know it all you will find all the help there that you need. I know I always try to help anyone in need of help. When I started in this (1970) I very much needed help  and there was not a lot of help out there at the local level.Any problem can be solved however we some times stumble around a bit getting there.

[SCLoyalist]

I'd try Rich G's suggestion of seating and then pulling a ball to see if the patch integrity is being compromised in the absence of hot gasses.   If it is, then options like Scotchbrite to polish the bore, or lead-lapping, or using valve grinding compound might work.   Or, he could even have the barrel rebored and re-rifled maybe up to a .58 and be confident of starting life anew with a smooth barrel.

If the patch is getting shredded only on firing (i.e. the patch of the pulled ball tried in the previous step comes out intact), then experiment with different patch material, lubes, and ball diameters.      If I was moving onto this phase of the experimentation, I'd try a few shots loading powder,  topped with an equal volume measure of cornmeal, then the patched ball.   The cornmeal will be a really effective firewall protecting the patch from combustion heat and gas blow-by, so if there is any damage to a patch, I'd attribute it to the patch being cut by the lands, or damaged by roughness/pitting in the bore.  If the patches are intact, then start trying different powder charges, patch material (denim, light canvas, ticking, linen, etc), patch thicknesses, lubes and ball diameters until one emerges that works.   I had a .40 that ate patches,  and found that some patch materials would survive when lubed with water or spit, but not oil based lubes.   

Good luck with it.

[hudson]

If the patch is being damaged when fired there is a good chance the barrel is leaded. The lead needs to be cleaned out next. It's possible the problem mite have started there.

[longcruise]

I the original post you say "he has long had" the problem.  So did he have the problem from the git go or did it develop over time.  From the git go implys that it may be factory defective or not broken in.  If it's a development it suggests deterioration of the barrel.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

We are all speculating, and likely none of us are hitting the issue.  Your friend needs one on one mentoring with someone who knows what they are doing, and can diagnose the fellows problems.  That's pretty well impossible to do from here, though many have made good efforts.

[rfd]

sir, this problem can't be solved with remote words, and thy friend and his gun need to hie to a knowledgeable gunsmith and get it done right.

[Mike_StL]

Has your friend run a bore scope down the barrel to look for sogns of roughness?  Sometimes pitting can occur even with meticulous cleaning.  Lead buildup is unlikely with the use of patched round ball.  The Scotch Brite patching may do some good.  Smoothing the crown is a good idea.

I agree that trying to solve this shredding of patches is a mystery that is not likely to solved from the keyboard.

[WadePatton]

All the shredded patches I ever got were from a perchlorate-pitted* bore, or a double charge.  And that's a fact.   

*Just in case anyone doesn't know, perchorate is the metal etching junk that constitutes a significant part of  the residue left by Pyrodex powder.  If you must burn it, be religious to the extreme in your cleaning.

[Daryl]

Shredded patches? I've never seen one.   Shredded wheat? - I love it.

Sounds as if the material is useless as a patch material.

 If too loose, they must be burnt up - but shredded SOUNDS like shreads of otherwise good cloth?  Useless material for patching - maybe asbestos?

[Flint62Smoothie]

FYI, Eddie May out of Georgia sells 0.520" sized cast RBs for $8.50 per (100). The small sized flat rate postal box cost $7.15 now I believe. He can stuff a few years of shooting into one of those boxes!

So there is a viable commercial source for 52 RBs if needed. Cheers!