Author Topic: A pair of fantasy Originals.  (Read 6139 times)

Offline jerrywh

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A pair of fantasy Originals.
« on: January 31, 2017, 09:39:11 AM »
These two rifles were made in Pennsylvania and are originals. From the early 1800's.  One of these has a extensive gold inlaid game seen on the barrel and lots of other gold inlaid designs on the barrel.   There were always so called fantasy guns.

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Re: A pair of fantasy Originals.
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2017, 01:01:49 PM »
Jerry, Jerry, Jerry,

Let's not confuse the issue ...

Those rifles exist therefore they are FANCY rifles, NOT "fantasy rifles".    ;)

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Offline Joe S.

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Re: A pair of fantasy Originals.
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2017, 01:04:08 PM »
lotta bling on them but still very tastefully done Imho.I quess all presentation pieces given to heads of state,Kings,czars ect.would be considered fantasy guns? I think if you can get it all to flow together and it doesn't look just thrown at it to see what sticks you can pull it off.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: A pair of fantasy Originals.
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2017, 03:54:03 PM »
Yes, I am in agreement with the notion that these are "highest grade", "presentation grade", or "extra extra fancy", but not "Fantasy".

On another thought in this line, recall the little "bird gun" we saw a few months ago?  Not a gun at all but a beautifully intricate mechanized grown up toy. Can't call it a fantasy gun, because it's no gun. It's a gizmo in the shape of a gun. 

The financial outlay that it takes to acquire such an item, gun or otherwise, may make it a fantasy for anyone of modest income to ever own such, but I don't think that's the best use of the term "Fantasy Rifle/Gun".  Just because we can only fantasize of owning it; and that it may never be fired, doesn't remove legitimate "gun" status to presentation grade items.

As Jerry shows here, presentation grade has a long history, probably as long as there have been men leading other men.

I'll continue to reserve my use of the term fantasy to items that very likely never plausibly existed in history as we understand it. This leaves plenty of room for interpretation and disagreement.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 05:33:24 AM by WadePatton »
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: A pair of fantasy Originals.
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2017, 08:42:02 PM »
lotta bling on them but still very tastefully done Imho.I quess all presentation pieces given to heads of state,Kings,czars ect.would be considered fantasy guns? I think if you can get it all to flow together and it doesn't look just thrown at it to see what sticks you can pull it off.

   This is not a criticism but only an observation. Joe makes a point here. In his opinion these are tastefully done.
 In my opinion these are gaudy as can be. I feel the same about some of Boute's guns. It only illustrates the difference in the way people think. Opinions aside, It took great craftsmanship and many years of practice and learning to accomplish the task. If one does anything long enough and with passion in field of any craft, He or she will reach a point where there is nobody left to learn from.  At that point the only option is to teach ones self.
  There is a class of Engravers in this category as well as other trades and professions. In the engravers field we call them grand Masters. 
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Offline oldtravler61

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Re: A pair of fantasy Originals.
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2017, 08:53:17 PM »
  Jerry to me their gaudy. The guns that I have seen of your work are fabulous. Dang now I did it. A new word description rats Sorry Mike

Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: A pair of fantasy Originals.
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2017, 10:00:25 PM »
The lower rifle was made by Georgia gunsmith Wiley Higgins. Kindig in his book attributed it to possibly John Lowmaster of York PA ( later Ohio) and the attribution stuck for a long time.

 Use of the term "fantasy rifle" assumes that the longrifle's evolution reached an end at some arbitrary point in history. In some cases it also assumes that anything other than strict replication of original pieces created before that same arbitrary point in history are to be regarded somewhat as longrifles of a lesser type. While we may not all appreciate certain directions the evolution has taken  - and not exclusively in modern times - a lot of us might gain a fresh perspective on the longrifle by accepting that it's evolution is still underway.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 10:01:59 PM by Ian Pratt »

Offline jerrywh

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Re: A pair of fantasy Originals.
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2017, 10:49:11 PM »
 I was mistaken when I said these rifles were made in Pennsylvania.  The percussion rifle was made in Georgia and According to the information I have the maker of the flintlock is unknown. My info is old on these rifles.
  Ian Pratt's statement on fantasy rifle is precisely my belief.   I appreciate the compliments but some of mine are pretty gaudy also.  The line is narrow.
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Offline bama

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Re: A pair of fantasy Originals.
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2017, 11:43:58 PM »
I am in agreement with Ian in that I consider the rifles being built today a continuation of the American art form we know as the Long rifle. I also think that the rifles being built today will be the collectibles of tomorrow. I also think just like we have come to know builders like Beck, Dickert, Haines,  Kuntz, Reedy etc. to be the masters of their time that we will also have the masters of this time. I truly believe that we have builders today that rival the masters of yesterday. I am not trying to be disrespectful here and I know that most diehard collectors of the antique rifles frown at this thinking but it can not be denied that some very good rifles are being built today. We already have names of some of the future masters that are already being collected. The names of House, Bivens, Gusler, Silver are just a few that are leaving their mark. Jerry you are doing top flight work that few can do in this day. Not all rifles built today fall into that category but then not all rifles of yesterday are great collectibles either. Many old originals are viewed as nice old guns that that have some history. We will have rifles that fall into that case also. Look at all of the Haines pattern rifle that have been built of the last 30+ years. One day this will be a school in it's self. Who can say what will be another two hundred years from now. I doubt I will be worrying about it to much.
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Offline hanshi

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Re: A pair of fantasy Originals.
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2017, 12:58:53 AM »
Just a thought for consideration, what's wrong with rifles deemed fantasy?  True, old time builders continued to evolve in their work so, seriously now, did their students build fantasy rifles?  I honestly don't know the answer to that. 
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Offline Joe S.

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Re: A pair of fantasy Originals.
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2017, 01:33:43 AM »
Hmmmm,guady to me always ment to me atleast being over done and outa place.Sorta like that neighbor that has all those ridiculous statues and that big guady fountain in their yard and it gets worse when you go in there house and there's a velvet painting of Elvis or Tony Soprano over the mantle along with the spotted couch and they are serious about it.The rest of the neighborhood is normal,that's guady.So I guess a rifle decorated with all those half moons, hunter stars,inset your folk art here can be considered gaudy as well?While all the above wouldn't be my cup of tea I still say those two rifles while extreme in the bling are still not there in the terms as gaudy as I understand it.I would never build or probably own such a gun but I still see the beauty in such pieces

ron w

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Re: A pair of fantasy Originals.
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2017, 01:54:57 AM »
gotta agree,....gaudy, overdone,... bling is wrong motif for a rifle. triggers and trigger guards are horrendous !. it almost hurts to look at them.

Offline RAT

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Re: A pair of fantasy Originals.
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2017, 06:20:18 PM »
I've always defined "fantasy rifle" differently. That being a rifle that requires a complicated back-story to justify it's existence. For example... A rifle that has a fake repair and inset beads with a complex back-story to describe how these came to be. Make a rifle (or better... a smoothbore) with inset beads and call it "art"... add a back-story and it becomes "fantasy".

The degree of decoration is irrelevant. Some prefer plain... some prefer bling... that's in the eye of the beholder. I agree with Mr. Pratt that it's a living art form that still continues to this day.
Bob

Offline Dphariss

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Re: A pair of fantasy Originals.
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2017, 06:41:44 PM »
I was mistaken when I said these rifles were made in Pennsylvania.  The percussion rifle was made in Georgia and According to the information I have the maker of the flintlock is unknown. My info is old on these rifles.
  Ian Pratt's statement on fantasy rifle is precisely my belief.   I appreciate the compliments but some of mine are pretty gaudy also.  The line is narrow.

Don King made some copies of  the FL over the years. It is pictured in Kindig's book, pgs 334-336,  "associated with J. Lowmaster" on pretty weak evidence. I thought the rifle was from Georgia too but don't know where I heard this unless it was from Don... He made one for the founder of Burris Scopes and it sold with a disassembled lock for $900 according to the man who bought it and wrote me about the rifle. I never find deals like this..... But at least its in good hands now....


Dan
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Just read Ians post. So Georgia it is.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 06:43:59 PM by Dphariss »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: A pair of fantasy Originals.
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2017, 06:51:09 PM »
The lower rifle was made by Georgia gunsmith Wiley Higgins. Kindig in his book attributed it to possibly John Lowmaster of York PA ( later Ohio) and the attribution stuck for a long time.

 Use of the term "fantasy rifle" assumes that the longrifle's evolution reached an end at some arbitrary point in history. In some cases it also assumes that anything other than strict replication of original pieces created before that same arbitrary point in history are to be regarded somewhat as longrifles of a lesser type. While we may not all appreciate certain directions the evolution has taken  - and not exclusively in modern times - a lot of us might gain a fresh perspective on the longrifle by accepting that it's evolution is still underway.
I agree about the evolution.  ALL the rifles we make are in some way inspired by the past but virtually all are part of an evolution unless the maker has an original in hand and even then its never an exact duplicate. I try to stay "in school" but in the end all the firearms I make have my name on them.

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: A pair of fantasy Originals.
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2017, 07:06:43 PM »
gotta agree,....gaudy, overdone,... bling is wrong motif for a rifle. triggers and trigger guards are horrendous !. it almost hurts to look at them.

HOWEVER. You need to understand that in Europe by the late 18th c ALL decoration on wood was disappearing or already gone. It was SIMPLY A CHANGE IN FASHION. The carved long rifle survived in the US for decades perhaps 50 years, after carving have virtually vanished from the rifles made in England for example. Jefferson made some comments about the excess and gaudy decoration of the past. So when people decry the decoration they need to ask if they are viewing the decoration with the 18th c eye or with the austere eye caused by the disappearance of the decoration due to fashion of the late 18th and early 19th c.
These rifles were no different in their time than a kid with a jacked up diesel pickup or a semi with chrome everything or one that is all painted with no chrome.   These were likely shooting match rifles as a sign of their affluence. Plain uncarved rifles were not the norm in American before 1820 or so. Then the fad of inlays started. Some were tastefully done as these are. Some looked like the inlays were loaded in a fowling piece and shot at the stock...
There was a rifle built for a museum by the Williamsburg shop, a friend who was there tells me, and someone at the museum (in Kentucky IIRC) filed off the carving since "they did not have things like that"...

Dan
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ron w

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Re: A pair of fantasy Originals.
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2017, 08:19:49 PM »
I certainly wouldn't deface an original, or a reproduction rifle because I didn't like it's looks.  I just don't care for that look, despite it's being a historic statement. I would find it hard to purchase a rifle like that if I were one that collected late 18th/early19th century rifles.   I understand it's affluence to " an 18th century eye", I simply don't care for that kind of decoration on a rifle,...any rifle of any period.

Offline Elnathan

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Re: A pair of fantasy Originals.
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2017, 08:34:01 PM »
The word "fantasy" as applied to muzzleloaders is a continuation of the same word as applied to swords, etc. - they are pieces that have no historical precedent but are products of the makers' imagination. The only real difference is that fantasy swords, etc., are usually made within the context of an explicitly imagined universe, such as those invented by Tolkien or Howard, whereas fantasy flintlocks are not.*

The exact delineation between a fantasy piece and a recreation of a historical example is pretty murky and a legitimate discussion, but the basic concept is pretty simple. I'm not sure why so many people seem to have trouble with it, unless they simply aren't aware of a rather significant literary and cultural phenomenon of the last century and a half....

In sum, no, those are not fantasy rifles, because the word "fantasy" in the context of modern-made weapons (and many other things, as a matter of fact) means something quite different from how the OP is using it. This is not a word that is confined to our own little circle, but is an extrapolation of a concept recognized world-wide, so I don't think that there is room for debate on the matter.

On a more general note, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making a fantasy/contemporary longrifle. I think it is a sign of that the art and mystery of longrifle-making is healthy and alive, as a matter of fact. The problem is when a fantasy rifle is (as they often are) labelled as a historical piece. It would help things a great deal if people would label their creations in a straightforward way so that they can be judged fairly - if you are making a recreation or interpretation of a historical piece, expect it to be judged as such. If you are making modern fantasy piece, expect it to be judged on its artistic merits and as a continuation or commentary on tradition (all art of any genre is made within the context of earlier art, this is not unique to longrifles!) This allows for both good and bad examples of both genres. Personally, I think that making a good fantasy rifle is every bit as difficult as making a good historical piece, and requires an intimate knowledge of historical examples from which to build on.





*To answer the obvious objection: No, just because a story is theoretically set in the past does not preclude it being fantasy. Historically-based fantasy literature was actually pretty normal for most of western history - see the King Arthur legend for perhaps the most important example- and setting stories in alternative universes only became standard after Tolkien published The Lord of the Rings in the 1950s, I believe. Even the Conan stories were set on Earth in an imagined earlier eon. Modern Asian fantasy is often set in a more or less specific historical period - the Judge Dee movies on Netflix are an easily accessible and obvious example, 14 Blades is perhaps more subtle.)
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Offline WElliott

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Re: A pair of fantasy Originals.
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2017, 07:54:02 AM »
To clarify some of the misstatements made above: the flintlock rifle was made, and signed, by Wiley G. Higgins in Monroe County, Georgia ca. 1825-30. The percussion rifle is a New York rifle. The Higgins rifle currently resides in the Frazier Arms Museum in Louisville, Kentucky.
Wayne Elliott
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