Author Topic: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect  (Read 4854 times)

Offline scottmc

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Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« on: February 28, 2017, 02:31:19 AM »
I have a question or problem that I"m hoping you all may have some helpful advice on.  It as follows:

I have a new southern rifle that I"m working for groups.  I have the sights that Jim Kibler uses on his southern guns and that he was kind enough to sell to me.  They are beautiful and look right on the gun.  Here's the problem....after about 6 shots or so, I'm fighting heat mirage effect and it distorts my front sight.  I finally got a one hole group this past saturday at 25 yards but couldn't replicate it due to the mirage setting in.  My back sight is .165" high in relation to the barrel surface and the front sight is .160 to the top in relation to the barrel surface (very low profile).  The barrel finish which I did was brown to pit, then took the brown back to just leave a little pitting then went over with cold blue to give that patina effect. 
A friend of mine suggested bead blasting the top flat to roughen up the surface and reduce the mirage effect.  My question is will that help or should I just put new sights on and raise them to the quarter inch height for both front and back?
Sorry for the long winded descrition but felt I had to give you the full explanation.
Remember Paoli!

Offline snapper

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Re: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2017, 03:19:13 AM »
the mirage is going to be as the result of heat coming off of your barrel.  I dont know that changing your barrel finish will change this.

Are you shooting that fast?  If you were shooting it the way you would normally shoot, would it be an issue?  Or do you bench shoot and quickly?

fleener
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Offline scottmc

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Re: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2017, 03:39:38 AM »
I don't think I"m shooting fast.  I'm bench shooting for now.  I've never had this problem with any other rifle I've had or have.  But then again, I've never had a rifle with sights this low.  My front sight is actually .100 above the barrel and not .160.  I was just out working on it and measured again.
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Offline scottmc

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Re: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2017, 03:47:28 AM »
my friends theory is that a rough surface does not allow for mirage like a smooth surface.  I'm not sure about that so that's why I'm asking here hoping someone can shed some light on that theory.  I was in Stan Hollenbaughs shop this past weekend and was discussing the issue with him and he said when he was in the military, they used to soot the barrels and sights to cut back on the mirage on their M-14's.  I thought that was interesting.
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Offline snapper

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Re: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2017, 03:54:54 AM »
how do you think you will normally shoot this rifle?  Are you just working up a load?  If you think you will shoot it at a slower pace in the future, perhaps you just live with it until you get it sighted in? 

Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline P.Bigham

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Re: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2017, 04:51:28 AM »
 I have one of Jims Kit Rifles, They are excellent. The low sights are historically correct and look good. I have the same problem you are having with heat waves. The sights are too low for the way we shoot now for the most part. You will need taller sights. I plan on replacing mine In the future. My humble opinion.
" not all who wander are lost"

Offline hortonstn

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Re: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2017, 04:52:30 AM »
Before sandblasting the barrel put some. Dull black tape on the barrel flat see if that helps I have the same problem I've decided to shoot at a slower rate I love the look of low sights

Offline scottmc

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Re: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2017, 05:08:57 AM »
I agree with both of you on the look of the sights on the gun.  I plan on using it in competition shoots and just plinking at my club so the rate of fire will be pretty steady.  It's a 40 caliber 44" barrel that Bobby Hoyt made for me and has a nice swamp that is not overly swamped but just slight the way they were back then.  When i was shooting, it was in the low 60's here in eastern PA so I can't imagine how bad it will be when it gets to be 80 out.
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Offline Paddlefoot

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Re: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2017, 05:50:14 AM »
The mirage is from the heat bending the light rays. Low sights are going to be down in it more than taller ones. Finish should not change the development of the mirage. High power shooters often use a mirage band stretched from the front scope mount area to the front sight base. A bit of elastic band about an inch or so wide. The band is supposed to sit a little off the barrel and deflect the mirage out of the sight path. For how you want to shoot the short answer is taller sights.
The nation that makes great distinction between it's warriors and it's scholars will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting done by fools. King Leonidas of Sparta

Offline scottmc

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Re: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2017, 06:05:41 AM »
I appreciate the responses and it appears, as I thought it would, that higher sights is the answer.  I don't think quarter inch high sights will detract from the appearance of the rifle that much.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2017, 06:06:25 AM »
I have a question or problem that I"m hoping you all may have some helpful advice on.  It as follows:

I have a new southern rifle that I"m working for groups.  I have the sights that Jim Kibler uses on his southern guns and that he was kind enough to sell to me.  They are beautiful and look right on the gun.  Here's the problem....after about 6 shots or so, I'm fighting heat mirage effect and it distorts my front sight.  I finally got a one hole group this past saturday at 25 yards but couldn't replicate it due to the mirage setting in.  My back sight is .165" high in relation to the barrel surface and the front sight is .160 to the top in relation to the barrel surface (very low profile).  The barrel finish which I did was brown to pit, then took the brown back to just leave a little pitting then went over with cold blue to give that patina effect. 
A friend of mine suggested bead blasting the top flat to roughen up the surface and reduce the mirage effect.  My question is will that help or should I just put new sights on and raise them to the quarter inch height for both front and back?
Sorry for the long winded descrition but felt I had to give you the full explanation.

Scott- your sights sound PERFECT for the rifle. Heat is a problem v- no matter where you live, in Florida or Alaska.  If shooting in freezing weather, it only takes a couple shots to generate heat distortion.  In hot weather you can usually shoot 5, but- sooner or later, heat waves screw up the sight picture and makes for lousy(er) groups.  Raising the sight's height well above the barrel will POSTPONE the heat problem, but in all likelihood, not eliminate it and will make the sights too high for the rifle's design - WHO the F put THOSE sights on that OTHERWISE beautiful rifle?  This pretty much boils down to your feelings - do I wreck the guns' lines? or make it better for 'slightly' extended strings, or do I leave it perfect and take a break and have a coffee or beer?  I vote for the beer, after making a tiny one-hole group - at any range.

I have this VERY problem with my 14 bore rifle.  The sights are just about right on the barrel and heat is a constant problem - I fight through it and REFUSE to put higher sights on the rifle.

When I shot 3-position - we mounted a 2" wide elastic band between "high" sights, to dissipate heat waves & yet our sights were from 1" (irons) to 1 1/2" (scope) OVER the barrel. It helped but still with 20 rounds fired, did not eliminate heat wave distortion of the target.  You cannot eliminate heat distortion - you can only stop when it becomes a problem - have a coffee (or beer) and let the @!*% thing cool down. Cheers!
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 06:09:24 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Re: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2017, 03:32:36 PM »
my friends theory is that a rough surface does not allow for mirage like a smooth surface.  I'm not sure about that so that's why I'm asking here hoping someone can shed some light on that theory.  I was in Stan Hollenbaughs shop this past weekend and was discussing the issue with him and he said when he was in the military, they used to soot the barrels and sights to cut back on the mirage on their M-14's.  I thought that was interesting.

Relative to the soot; we only did that on the rifle range and the point was to eliminate glare - not mirage. A the rifle ranges at Parris Island we always had smudge pots that you could use to blacken the sights and this helped with glare. 300 yard rapid fire with an M-14 will cause mirage no matter how well the sights are blackened. Are you sure that what you are experiencing is the wavy heat lines that come off the barrel heat or just fuzzy distortion of the rear sight due to eye focus plane effects?  Maybe corrective lenses with a different focal plane is the answer?

Offline DBoone

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Re: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2017, 04:19:19 AM »
Lick your thumb and rub it across your front sight blade.............just Davy did..... ;D

Offline little joe

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Re: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2017, 04:55:06 AM »
Taller sights

Offline Dave R

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Re: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2017, 05:42:59 AM »
I have found in 40 years of competitive traditional muzzleloading black powder shooting sights approx 3/8" high help a lot in reducing mirage however it reduces aesthetics! I guess each person must decide "do I want functional accurate repetitive shooting or aesthetics? " :-\
To my estimation low sights back in the 1700's - 1800's reduced the chance of taking too much front sight and shooting over game in heavily forested dark woods and reduced the chance of snagging the sights on brush or trees and knocking them out of alignment! ANY OTHER THOUGHTS??

somehippy

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Re: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2017, 07:36:06 PM »
I have found in 40 years of competitive traditional muzzleloading black powder shooting sights approx 3/8" high help a lot in reducing mirage however it reduces aesthetics! I guess each person must decide "do I want functional accurate repetitive shooting or aesthetics? " :-\
To my estimation low sights back in the 1700's - 1800's redouced the chance of taking too much front sight and shooting over game in heavily forested dark woods and reduced the chance of snagging the sights on brush or trees and knocking them out of alignment! ANY OTHER THOUGHTS??


I've thought about this some, I have thought perhaps low profile sights were a primitive range finding system.  The thought occurred to me when I was filing my front sight thinner and checking the sight picture at a distant target out the window.  I was aiming at a fence post roughly 150 yards away and the height of my front sight when shouldered and aiming was the height of said post.  Which made me think maybe low sights were used similar to mil-dot recticles on modern scopes.  Perhaps the front sights In the old days were filed to the height or a man at a certain range (200 yards? To the edge of the feild of the homestead?) then the rear was filed to accommodate a selected "zeroed" range.

Offline kudu

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Re: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2017, 08:23:11 PM »
I myself have the same exact problem when shooting in matches hear in Michigan, line matches use the standard 30min for 5 shots  no problem in loading time, But a BIG problem for cooling the barrel. Ive tried everything I can think of ,and nothing within reason helps.
I recently found some "old" cloth electricians tape- not the vinyl stuff / it helps if placed full length between the front and rear sight.

I can tell you this I have a friend that used to shoot silloutet matches  back when they were all the rage and told me that there were guys that used compressed propane to cool their barrels until it was outlawed (against the rules) so they then used rubbing alcohol and ice and that also was outlawed.

This is just what he told me? but I dont think any of this would "FLY" at a Traditional Bp and Round Ball match.

Offline Flint62Smoothie

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Re: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2017, 08:43:38 PM »
Here's what I do with my smoothbores to combat mirage, not that it wouldn't work w/ rifles. But my flint BP rifles are for hunting use, otherwise my flint smoothies get shot 100X more than the 'riffles' do.

For my first few shots from either arm, I'll "imprint" in my mind where the top of the barrel is in relation to the top of the sight blade. Once mirage builds up, my focus will 'shift' to where I'm holding the top of the barrel to where I need to hold it, for the roundball to impact where desired. On woods walks, it'll become 2nd nature where to hold the barrel in relation to the sight height, to still hit the gong or whatever target, where tight degrees of high/low shots are usually not needed.

If the bullseye, for example, was a black bull of 9 & 10 ring, using this method I'll 'hit black' most if not all the time. This technique of 'aiming for black' is also extensively used in modern centerfire high power matches and I only mention that to prove a point.

Now in a match, yes I may score a 8 or a 9, where a rifle (with or without mirage) may be capable of scoring the 10, but ~1-point out ain't bad! It works! As honestly in competition, when I'm 'on' (the nut behind the trigger is working ... ) my smoothie scores are usually right up there w/ the top rifle scores. Try it!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 08:45:11 PM by Flint62Smoothie »
All of my muzzleloaders will shoot into one ragged hole ALL DAY LONG ... it's just the 2nd or 3rd & other shots that tend to open up my groups ... !

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2017, 03:06:17 AM »
Please don't sandblast the barrel. Back in the day that was what a lot of shooters did. IMO, it ruins the appearance of the gun, and doesn't improve the sight picture at all. A close friend just bought a gun off of another muzzleloader website. It looked real good in the pictures, but when it arrived it looked like the barrel, and "matching" lock had been dug up in the back yard. He decided to keep it because the rest of the gun was so nice. He is now draw filing the barrel to get rid of the roughness so he can refinish it. I'm not sure what he is going to do with the lock.
 I myself just round off the sharp edges of the barrel, and try to draw file in a very slight crown on the top flat of the barrel. It seems to help a little.
 Big shark fin sights are another deal breaker for me. They are ugly as all get out, and don't help much.

  Hungry Horse

Offline little joe

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Re: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2017, 04:48:58 AM »
I agree the shark fins look like $#@* but I  like some thing between trad. and a tall target sight.

Smoketown

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Re: Barrel finish/ sights in relation to reducing mirage effect
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2017, 04:36:35 AM »
I recently found some "old" cloth electricians tape- not the vinyl stuff / it helps if placed full length between the front and rear sight.

It's called 'friction tape' and most electrical supply stores should have it.

Cheers,
Smoketown