Lock identification: English / German

[g2608671@verizon.net]

Can someone please direct me to a resource that I can use to help me identify and distinguish if a lock is in the English or German style?  I have it in my mind that one of the benchmarks is the shape of the pan: English pans being rounded and German pans having pronounced flat faces.  But I don't know if that is correct and I am thinking that there are other design differences and features that are used to identify the locks.

[rich pierce]

A lot depends on the period.  For example, early Brown Bess muskets were Dutch influenced, which placed them closer to Germanic.  There are early Germanic locks with rounded pans, lockplates, and cocks.

By the 1770s export locks were easier to identify as you mentioned.  Faceted pans on Germanic locks and rounded pans on English locks.  Also English locks normally have the pan integral to the lockplate, whereas Germanic locks normally have detachable pans.

[g2608671@verizon.net]

A lot depends on the period.  For example, early Brown Bess muskets were Dutch influenced, which placed them closer to Germanic.  There are early Germanic locks with rounded pans, lockplates, and cocks.

By the 1770s export locks were easier to identify as you mentioned.  Faceted pans on Germanic locks and rounded pans on English locks.  Also English locks normally have the pan integral to the lockplate, whereas Germanic locks normally have detachable pans.

Well thanks, this helps I think.  Perhaps the best approach for me is to either ignore references that pertain to these lock distinctions as some sort of affirmation of the writers' expertise or maybe become an expert relative to the period and styles and as they pertain to my original question.  I think my best bet is to go with my first option.
 

[blienemann]

I have been studying locks and the arms they go with for many years, and just when I think I have figured it out, exceptions pop up.  Many early German rifles, fowlers and pistols have round faced locks and round pans with a wide skirt.  I was thinking that later German locks were flat faced with an angled pan - maybe most are, but now I see exceptions.  Europe was a big place with much variety by location, gunmakers moved from Europe to England taking design ideas with them, etc.  There is not a straight line evolution in lock design from all sources.

We can learn a lot by surfing the auction houses with English and continental arms, and studying their locks - especially when dated.  Build a collection of photos and look for what is common, what is different.  Develop your own understanding, but watch out for the exceptions.

You can always post a lock here for reaction from the group.  There is no single reference to answer this question.  Bob

[rich pierce]

The question often pops up in regard to what locks should be used on a late Southern mountain rifle. Several outfits offer the Siler lock as standard for their "SMR" kits. Given that the Siler is a 1770s design and Germanic, and Southern mountain rifle kits usually are based on late flint to percussion period styling, the Siler or similar Germanic locks seem an odd choice.

Similar discussions arise over the appropriate lock for an "early Virginia" rifle, with students of the longrifle noting that  Virginia rifles are more likely to have English locks.

While not a scholarly approach, one way to familiarize yourself with English versus Germanic locks is to look at current offerings.

[Elnathan]

A place to start might be Shumway's collected Longrifle Articles, vol. 2. He has three or four articles devoted to locks, both English and German - doesn't really address roundfaced German locks, but for the type of locks usually found on 18th century longrifles it might be a good primer. There are also a few examples of European locks on European guns elsewhere in the book, and, of course, there is another collection of his articles devoted to Jaeger rifles which would have many examples to study.