Cape guns/ combination guns

[Old Ford2]

Hello again,
Were cape guns or combination guns ( rifle/smooth bore ) relatively common in the early and mid 1800's ?
In the movie Jerimiah Johnson, the movie character Red Feather? ( name ) has one.
It would seem to be a very practical type of gun to have.
If this post breaches the theme of ALR, no intent applied.
Fred

[OLUT]

Here's the short answer - I'll let Bill Paton respond for the flint era, but two barreled guns were not rare in the percussion era. The barrel arrangement of superposed barrels is more frequently seen than the side by side ( cape gun ) arrangement. Although the owner got two rapid shots and the choice of rifle or buck and ball load, there were several disadvantages. The biggest was the added weight of the second barrel. Cost was also higher of course.... from price sheets in the 1870's it appears that the two barrel variety cost almost double the price of a single barrel gun. Note that mounting two back action locks on a gun resulted in a weaker wrist on these guns than on a single barrel gun. The earlier guns with a typical swivel breech (wender type) were also more complex, with a release mechanism that might be difficult to use in very cold weather

[JCKelly]

Didn't do a count but there are a lot of over/under rifle/shotguns, rifle/rifle and smooth heavy wall/shotgun pieces in my Michigan Gunsmiths book. My guess is this style was the last practical muzzle loader for the guy who would own just one gun, perhaps a farmer. Through the 1870's I do not believe a good breech loading over/under rifle/shotgun was available in the US.

[Seth Isaacson]

Didn't do a count but there are a lot of over/under rifle/shotguns, rifle/rifle and smooth heavy wall/shotgun pieces in my Michigan Gunsmiths book. My guess is this style was the last practical muzzle loader for the guy who would own just one gun, perhaps a farmer. Through the 1870's I do not believe a good breech loading over/under rifle/shotgun was available in the US.

Agreed. Many of those that I have seen came from Michigan or nearby states.

[Hungry Horse]

California was big on multi shot muzzleloaders, and they didn't always stop at two barrels. I've seen three, and four barrels on late percussions made in California. Charles Slotterbeck was famous for his double barreled scoped rifles, and rifled/smooth combinations.
  As for cost, a friend had his grandfathers  scoped double rifle built by Charles Slotterbeck in 1871. He also had the original bill of sale signed by Charlie. The gun cost $350.00. Now I will say, the gun was engraved with finely cut scroll engraving, and had gold wire work in all the major steel parts, including the heads of the hammer screws, but you could buy a new cartridge gun at the time for less than forty dollars. The grandfather was the Lake County sheriff at the time, and I think the gun was a status symbol. But if a multi barrel gun could be had for half that price, it would still be increadibily expensive.

 Hungry Horse

[sqrldog]

The book "Longrifles of Pennsylvania Vol. 1Jefferson, Clarion and Elk Counties" has multiple pictures  of stack barreled percussion muzzleloaders made in Pennsylvania in the late percussion era. Flint doubles are rare and are generally wenders or twist barrels. I hunted with a superposed rifle made by William Young from Wahkon MN it is a .54x.54 for several years. There are definitely advanrages to two barrels. A quick follow up shot or a second shot when you get in a bunch of hogs is a handy thing to have. Two ramrods in case one breaks two locks in case a spring breaks are also handy. The rifle William made for me is on Brice Stultz's blog if you care to see pictures of it. It is the best black powder hunting rifle I'll ever own. Weighs a little over 11#. Good rifle killed a bunch of hogs and deer with it. We discussed having one barrel smooth for a combo gun. But decided that it was impractical as hunters after big game would not do much small game hunting. Tim

[Bob Roller]

Didn't do a count but there are a lot of over/under rifle/shotguns, rifle/rifle and smooth heavy wall/shotgun pieces in my Michigan Gunsmiths book. My guess is this style was the last practical muzzle loader for the guy who would own just one gun, perhaps a farmer. Through the 1870's I do not believe a good breech loading over/under rifle/shotgun was available in the US.

I have seen a muzzle loading cape gun in 16 gauge of English make and percussion ignition.
Also I had a breech loader in 10 gauge/577/450 marked Army&Navy.

Bob Roller

[Levy]

I have two cape or combination guns that are side by side and percussion.  One is  a Nelson Lewis .41 x 12 ga. and the other is  a no name .29 x 24 ga.  I enjoy using them both.  The Lewis has great bores and the original tang sight.  the no name started life as a 24 ga. dbl and someone sleeved the left barrel and added a tang sight.  the small bore combination gun is a lot of fun on squirrels, my favorite pursuit.  Its a lot of fun when you get doubles with it. They are heavy to use, but I've always liked the idea of the versatility.  James Levy

[Majorjoel]

Here is one of mine of Germanic origin.  It is 50 caliber rifled and 52 caliber smooth bore.

[Feltwad]

Have restored several Cape guns in percussion most of the top English London and Birmingham made cape guns to be used in both Africa and India for military gentlemen  on some that were made for Africa were engraved with Water Buffalo and for India a Tiger . I just finished restoring one of Belgium make 2 month ago which I moved on .
Feltwad

[Daryl]

Seems to me, Ned Roberts had a .45 cal. SXS made by Nelson Lewis, rifled for a picket bullet.

I may or may not be remembering his writing correctly, but seems to me, the rod had a large diameter bullet nose fitting end, for straighter line seating.  I either read that in the book, or perhpas thought that would make for more accurate shooting myself, while reading his book.

[Bob Roller]

Seems to me, Ned Roberts had a .45 cal. SXS made by Nelson Lewis, rifled for a picket bullet.

I may or may not be remembering his writing correctly, but seems to me, the rod had a large diameter bullet nose fitting end, for straighter line seating.  I either read that in the book, or perhpas thought that would make for more accurate shooting myself, while reading his book.

Daryl,
It IS in Major Roberts book on the Muzzle Loading Caplock Rifle and it was a
Nelson Lewis double rifle that cost $35.
The fancy N.G.Whitmore rifle given to General Grant in 1866 cost $800 and
was a cased outfit.

Bob Roller

[realtorone]

I've had several over the years. A 12x12x40 three barrel attributed to Slotterbeck the trigger guard was  spring steel and was the underhammer spring for the rifle barrel.
also had a .62x.62 one twist and one straight rifled made in Austria..Had the city inlaid on the rib but don't know where the paperwork is at the moment.It had a sliding wooden patch box lid,and all the metal including the screw heads were nicely engraved.The man I got it from was shooting it at Friendship in ether 2002 or 2003.
 in the shotgun matches.

George

[Hungry Horse]

George,  you said the three barreled gun was attributed to Slotterbeck, does this mean it wasn't signed? If that is the case it is the first I've heard of. I would be interested in any pictures you might have of this gun. I live in Lakeport California, where Charles Slotterbeck had his last shop, and have seen many double barreled Slotterbeck guns, with and without scopes. But, I have only heard of guns with more than two barrels by Charlie, and or his brothers.

  Hungry Horse

[realtorone]

I do have pictures but  will have to find them. No one seemed to know if it was made before going to Calif. or afterwards. It was not signed and I sold it at the Tenn Ky rifle show in ether 2009 or 10 as well as I remember. I purchased it 4 or 5 years prior at the show of shows in Louisville Ky. Although unsigned everyone who saw it Slotterbecks name came up as the most probable builder.

George

[Levy]

If I'm not mistaken, Slotterbeck held a patent for a 3-barreled perc. drilling.  I think I've seen a copy of the patent drawings somewhere in the dark past.  James Levy

[Hungry Horse]

A friend, many years ago went to friendship while he was back east on business. Those were the days when about 90 % of the shotgun being shot in competition were old originals. He went down traders row looking for a good solid muzzleloading shotgun. At one of the dealers booths he saw a Slotterbeck drilling for sale, but didn't buy it because he thought it was too heavy. He said that gun was made in San Francisco, and was so marked on the left lock plate. The right lockplate was marked C. Slotterbeck.

  Hungry Horse

[boman]

Fred, I don't have any idea how common they were over here anywhere during the Mountainman era but they were in North America.   Francis Parkman, In his book Oregon Trail; hooked up with an Irishman and an Englishman who were over here on a "western adventure".  Parkman's group and the English group traveled together from Missouri as far as Fort Laramie and he mentions that both men from the British Isles carried "double rifles of 16 balls to the pound slung from the horns of their saddles".  This would have been in 1846 at the tail end of the western fur trade as we have come to know it.

Steve

[Curt J]

I have four combination guns by Illinois makers. Two are side-by-side and two are over & under.  The side-by sides include one by John Schurr, Henry, Illinois, dating from the 1870's, and the other is stamped Henry Sears & Co., Rockford, Ill.  Henry Sears was primarily a hardware & cutlery dealer.  It is hard to say who actually made the gun, but it does not appear to be an import.

The over & under combination guns are: one by J. H. Green, Momence, Illinois; and one by Benjamin H. Walker, Galesburg, Illinois. The B. H. Walker started life as a swivel breech, but at some point early in its life, had a second lock added and the swivel locked up solid.  I would imagine that the swivel became loose, and the owner took it to the nearest gunsmith and had the alteration done.

There were others in Illinois who made combination guns of both types, as well as swivel breech guns. Edward Kline, at Henry, Illinois,  made three-barreled combination guns, and I have seen several.  These had back action locks for the upper two barrels (usually both smoothbore), and used the trigger guard as a mainspring for an underhammer mechanism, which fired the rifle barrel beneath.  Kline's guns normally have just one trigger that will fire whichever hammer is cocked, or all of them that are cocked, if that is your pleasure. He likewise made three-barreled rifles and three barreled shotguns, according to what a customer might want. He also made side-by-side double combination guns.  John Schurr, who made the one that I have, worked for Kline until Kline left Henry, in the early 1870's. Kline was making combination guns in Henry during the 1850's, and usually mentioned them in his advertisements.