Author Topic: Gettin Started  (Read 9387 times)

Online Hungry Horse

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Re: Gettin Started
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2017, 08:52:44 PM »
WYS, I agree that although a Hawken looks relatively simple but they definitely aren't. A Southern Mountain is easier, as long as you avoid the dreaded lollipop tang.
 My first scratch built gun was a trade gun made from a 30" long shotgun barrel. It didn't turn out so bad that I was ashamed to take it to shoots, but definitely showed that it wasn't made by a professional builder. Because I built all the furniture, I learned  much more than I would have if I'd bought all the parts.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Gettin Started
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2017, 09:58:18 PM »
So secretive,perhaps he's al queda,just got done being thawed out and doesn't know  what century he's in,LOL.Some folks just aren't comfortable putting all their personal information out there.WHSharpshooted,jump in the deep end and build the rifle you want to build,do the home work, acquire the right parts,take your time,ask the right questions and enjoy the ride.I'm far from one to give advise but that's the path I chose and have no regrets other than not getting a butt plate with a longer heel,LOL,don't sweat the small stuff ;)
Don'tknow which JoeS you are  If you are the one building a Hawken fullstock,for the past year; You might remember I invited you to my house to study my original full stock Hawken. It doesn't live here anymore.  How is that for overly secretive.  I just like to know who I am dealing with and actually love helping people get started in this hobby
Don

Offline Joe S.

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Re: Gettin Started
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2017, 11:43:55 PM »
Don,Mike lighten up a little,just funnin with all that who's who stuff.Handles been around since the CB radio days.Don I always thanked you for that invite and still regret not being able to take you up on it.As I said some folks are just more concerned about their names,ect .on these darn sites than others.Somebody wants to know more about me I'm always willing via PM or E-mail.I have done this with a couple folks on this site that helped me out,they didn't know me from Adam,that's what's great about folks here.I didn't mean to offend you,you want to shut the door on me I'm cool with that.Anybody can make up a name,addy ect.Its no way to "know who your dealing with"over the internet anyway.

WYSharpshooter79

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Re: Gettin Started
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2017, 06:56:31 AM »
With all the suggestions given here, I will look at both rifles and figure this out. I have to say the southern "poor boy" rifles tend to fit in more with my lifestyle that I live now, meaning my family and I try to be as self reliant as possible not only because of wanting to, but also we have to for financial reasons. I can see myself relating to the types of people that used them. But I also like the early Hawkens too. I will research both as Im not going to rush it and mess things up. Thanks for all the help and suggestions.

WYSharpshooter79

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Re: Gettin Started
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2017, 07:04:50 AM »

One of my pet peeves
  There are lots of guys willing to help you on this forum
  I notice that you don't care to share your name or what part of the world you live in
  Why should I share my knowledge with someone that secretive?
One of my peeves as well. I always have trouble remembering who is actually who. :P

With all due respect to you gentlemen, if my profile bothers you that much, nobody is forcing you to answer my questions and help. I used to be on a few other forums a while back, dont get on them as much as I used to as there always seems to be a few people that think them sitting behind a keyboard makes it ok for them to mouth off and throw insults. I am all about getting things done, I dont have time for trivial and petty internet subculture arguments. That is all I am going to say about this and I will not discuss it any further. Moderators if you need to ban me for this, there is nothing I can do, so be it.

Offline little joe

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Re: Gettin Started
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2017, 06:13:40 PM »
I have built a Hawken or 2 and traveled to The Museum of the Fur Trade,Cody Buffalo Bill, J.M. Davis,( Art Russull , years ago) and my question is to a beginner how do you describe a proper Hawken? I have saw tapered barrels, straight ones of various calibers and length,s. Several different lock designs, different trigger guards and I think mostly Maple wood and possibly  some Walnut . Most if not all had a hook breech, of  several different designs. All were cap lock with one lock bolt. Easy to build, NO.

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Gettin Started
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2017, 06:24:19 PM »
 Mike you can spy on me. I got to have something to do with my thermal imaging sight...!   ROTFL....Oldtravler

Offline Joe S.

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Re: Gettin Started
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2017, 06:28:38 PM »
Wait a minute there he's my stalker  :o

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Gettin Started
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2017, 12:53:05 AM »
  Wyoming just remember there are a lot of us that will gladly help.
 As for some, well it's there call. But I could careless what your real name is. I'm just trying to keep this sight going.
  We need new member's. Thus discouraging them is not a plus in anyone's book.
  Most are willing to give advice to help. The fact of the matter is you want help in fixing your gun. You are not asking personnel info about anyone on here.
  Also when you sign on to the ALR you have the choice of your real name or a Nick name.
  So if you got any questions ask me if you want. For all the mistakes I've done I could write a book on fixing thing's.
  So hang in there...!  Oldtravler or Mike without the B

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Gettin Started
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2017, 01:00:31 AM »
Okay. I'll admit I am a dinosaur.   Just like to know who I am communicating with.
  Handles in the CBdays was kind of funny. I just don't see the need to be secretive on a board like this with people that share common interests

 Nuff Said

54ball

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Re: Gettin Started
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2017, 01:22:21 AM »
As far as the profile stuff, this,community is rather small and close knit. If you stick with this and really get into the building or collecting aspect you'll see that and understand that better. I agree with you that the comments could have been phrased.....differently, more tactfully.

 As far as the Track "kits"....

 The Hawken and Early Tennessee are what I consider two of their priemuim parts sets. A lot of the difficulty with the long tang Hawken and Tennessee has been done with these sets. The Hawken will still have all the Hawken Quirks with the metal fit....I.E. the triggerguard and such as that.

 For a first time builder if using Track sets their best IMHO is the 44 inch barreled JP Beck kit. The 38" barrel Haines is good as well.
 Built plain with care the Beck makes a nice rifle.

 With this said, there are quirks about parts sets like these.
For example...

 Let's say you are in letting the side plate. The pre inlet is real close on one side and say a 16th on the top side. Super care has to be done not to screw this up. We are talking about removing oh so slight slivers from one side and a little more on the other side. Honestly it would be better if there was no pre inlet at all in some cases. Although it's 90 % inlet....that means they left you the hardest 10 percent. Since the inlet is almost.....that makes it harder. In this aspect a blank build is easier.
 Now as far as Lay Out and where stuff goes....the parts sets are easier for a new builder.
 Honestly building from a set requires a little different skill set than building from a blank. Parts set tend to be more tedious.
 Another thing that is more tedious is drilling pins. It takes more care pin a stock in the round vs in the square.
 I recommend 2 books for you.....Recreating the American Longrifle...( a good simple guide if you buy one buy this one) and The Gunsmith of Grenville County. In Grenville County Alexander tries to go into great detail about things that are reall hard to explain. So you have to read through it several times. If you cross reference both books as companions.....you will get it.
 Keep in mind both of these books are about building from a blank. Building from a pre inlet parts set is a little different and the assembly will be different.

 Do some research. This is a great investment.

 I must mention the Jim Chambers parts sets. These go together really well. The parts work out with No surprises.
 If you want something that is a real kit and goes together as easy or easier than A Traditions Kentucky...consider the Jim Kibler rifle. The Kibler was designed for a first timer to have a great rifle.

 Other options.....a pre shaped stock with the barrel inlet but in the square from the rear of the lock panel forward. This is in between a blank and a kit or parts sets....there are hundreds of stocks to choose from.....
 Knob Mountain
 Gillespie Rifle Works
 Track
 And many others...
 


 

Jeff

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Re: Gettin Started
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2017, 03:17:23 PM »
If there is anyone on this site that is green as grass as far as gun building it is me. For my first gun I am going to build a full stock hawken as well. It will be a 54 caliber, however, it will be a percussion gun. I have done tons of studying and reading on the Hawken. One of my favorite articles I found here: http://whitemuzzleloading.com/docs-ramblings . However, this is for the half stock. But it will lay out a lot of information for you on a traditional hawken in a short article.

There are several reasons that I chose the full stock, but one of the main reasons is the weight is reduced over the half stocks that I have researched. I have studied many original hawkens on the web. So many folks talk about authenticity, but in my research, these guns were built in a lot of different ways with many different characteristics. I personally feel that first and foremost the Hawken's were running a business. They appear to have used several different butt plates, trigger guards, barrels and locks. I think they used what was available to them on the market at the time. They may have built a lot of the parts in the beginning, but went to buying some parts that were pre-made (from where ever they found them).

Many of the full stock hawkens had stocks made of straight grained maple and cheek pieces were all flat. That is the way that they have been characterized to most of us moderns (as Doc puts it). But I recently came across an original full stock that was made of walnut and had the beaver tail cheek piece. The trigger guard was in the most common scroll style and the loop at the end was almost a perfect round shape like I have seen on the pre 1840 full stocks. It sold at auction for over $48,500.00. Personally, I don't know if it was original, but I would think that someone paying that kind of price for it must have done their homework.

To me that gun was really actractive. So my gun will be made of American black walnut and have the beaver tail cheek piece as well. What I am trying to decide on now is what type of barrel to use. In my readings I have learned that there were straight, tapered and "slightly" swamped barrels used on the hawkens. Straight barrels tend to be muzzle heavy, and the tappered barrels were really not that tapered. For example, the original Bridger hawken was 52 cal. The taper on the barrel was 1.175 at the breech and 1.125 at the muzzle. Carl Walker of GRRW said that kind of taper could be done with a file. Plus, I have read where tapered barrels (if too tapered) can make the muzzle too light and may wave around making it hard to hold on target. So since some had swamped barrels, then why not use one? The gun would be much better ballanced and would remove even more weight. Plus the flared end might be just enough weight to stop the waving.

One other thing that really drives me nuts is getting the lock inletted properly. I have seen tons of of hammers on original and temprorary guns bent over to fit the nipple. So it appears that even the Hawkens had trouble getting "lock geometry" figured out. Many of the full stocks that I have seen seem to line up much better. GRRW even said that the lock plate on the Bridger rifle was "bent" to fit the lock panel. Plus I get to learn how to make a ram rod channel inlet for future long rifles that I would like to build.

Like I said.... I am definitely not an expert at any of this. But I have done my reading and study on these guns. And I feel that you could use quite a few options and still be fairly historically correct. Just my opinion.

Jeff
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 04:06:05 PM by Jeff »

Online Hungry Horse

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Re: Gettin Started
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2017, 04:10:33 PM »
Jeff;

 I would not tackle a Hawken for my first build. They are deceptively hard to pull off even by experienced builders. The long bar triggers, and the long tang patent breech, are just a couple of places a new builder can go astray. Also, good Hawken parts are not cheap, and are easy to ruin with a little inexperienced filing, or grinding. Something with a full stock, fixed breech, simple trigger, would be the easiest for a novice to pull off while getting some valuable experience. JMO.

  Hungry Horse

Jeff

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Re: Gettin Started
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2017, 09:57:45 AM »
Hungry Horse,

I appreciate your concerns (which have been echoed by others as well). I understand that building this gun may be a challenge. But, I want to learn how to build this style of gun. From what I have seen, none of these guns are cheap to build. In my eyes, it is all expensive.

TOW lays out 3 problems with building the half stock:
1. Drilling the blind holes for the under rib.  There isn't one on the full stock.
2. Soldering the ram rod thimbles. I don't have to mess with that because they will be pinned on the full stock like most other long rifles.
3. Lock inletting. Getting the geometry right. This does bother me. But I figure I will have to learn sometime. I plan on making more of this type of gun. Might as well get at it (plus I hopefully have  you guys to lean on for help).  :)

I have the plans for the Kit Carson hawken. I will use that as a guide to help with getting the breech, triggers, and tang in. I figure if I can inlet a 2 inch tang, then I can inlet one that is longer. I am concerned about having to bend the tang to fit the curve of the stock. But I saw Herbs article on that and I feel I can follow his advice on how to fix that if needed. The triggers will have to be double set. That is just my preference. Any single trigger that I have shot just seem hard to pull. I know they can be adjusted and modified, but I really don't want to get into that type of thing just yet.

Jeff

mchulse

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Re: Gettin Started
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2017, 02:24:31 AM »
WyS, Good luck with your hawken build. There is a prevailing theme to many of the responses: Copy An Original. I've only seen a few, and only held one original Hawken rifle. Each was different. Similar to be sure, but different nonetheless. I plan to make three more 'hawken' rifles for my grandsons. I plan to purchase a couple of more sets of plans, purchase the parts I can't imagine building, buy a trigger kit to use as a guide and even make a few tools. I plan to build a good shooter that fits each young man made with strength and grace. These rifles might not be copies of ANY original but they will have been inspired by the renowned Hawken. I plan to do my best, have my grandsons help, and learn something new while enjoying the task. Have fun and good luck. P.S. if you are sincere, the curators at the museum in Cody might just let you too into the basement vault.