Is filling the grain on walnut HC?

[conquerordie]

Looking back in all the past discussions about filling the grain in walnut, I haven't really seen if it was common practice in the 18th century. I remember one comment about Europeans leaving the grain open, but nothing that I know of about American guns. I'm building a New England long fowler that was originally stocked in walnut. Curious if this is something that is HC or something that is considered common nowadays. Thank you again for the help,
Greg

[Carl Young]

I was pondering this question over the last couple of days as I browsed antique English guns, after noticing that most if not all of the pistols I viewed had incompletely filled pores. I don't have enough direct experience to know the answer, English or American.

-Carl

[Daryl]

Filling the grain takes time - something I doubt few period gun makers had little of that to spare.

[ron w]

it was probably done on good presentation grade rifle that were built back then, given the quality of finishes found on fine furniture of the period, but for the common man's shootin' iron, it probably was considered a waste of time and labor and of course there was no time for it during the times of the revolution.
   personal, I feel that we are not making guns to be used in that time, so whether it is HC or not, producing as finely finished a stock as we cam do is much more Period Correct for our current recreational use.
   if I came across a gun that was currently built and it lacked a good finish on the wood, I would consider it to be of poor quality simply because all long guns built today, a presentations of what was built back then and I consider that being a "presentation grade" rifle.  also, if I was building a rifle for myself or someone else, I would not feel right not putting as good a finish on the stock as I was capable of doing.

[sz]

What is HC?

[jerrywh]

 European guns almost all had superb finishes on them Especially fowlers. Most common people never had guns in Europe or England. In most countries you weren't allowed to hunt if you never owned land or some landowner let you hunt.  Usually the land owner was considered to be the owner of the game and poaching was a serious crime.

[Smoketown]

What is HC?

"Historically Correct".

Or, with all of the conjecture and/or speculation because nobody was actually there - "Hysterically Correct".   

Cheers,
Smoketown

[Goo]

Is the grain and density different from American black walnut , European, Corsican, Turkish etc. ? If one type has a dense grain and another does not then that may influence the finishing process?

[jerrywh]

  There is a difference between long guns and pistols and Blunderbusses.  We don't need to have the witness of some one who was there.  There are some great books and a lot of good guns remaining to day in the hands of private collectors.  Look in the Books by W. Keith Neil and D.H.L.Back. Also there are some great auction catalogs with superb examples.  Many pistols were made for common use and were called pocket guns or coach guns. They were not finished to perfection and were intended to be used as protection when traveling against bandits.   But hunting guns were another thing and most of them had superb finishes as they were made for the gentry usually on special order. This included Rifles and Fowlers. In America very few guns were finished to perfection. I suspect a lot of them were just varnished. 

[conquerordie]

So on an American fowler, it's possible that the grain was not filled then. Gonna experiment  scrap pieces to see what my stock  will look like both ways. I'm all for a HC finish and will prefer it every time compared to trying to make a presentation grade gun. Those don't appeal to me, while the work a day gun does. Just my preference. Thanks for the info
Greg

[rich pierce]

On some maple longrifles with remaining finish, its thick enough to have filled the grain on walnut if used on walnut.  Especially the case with those originals finished with a reddened varnish.  Not sure I buy the whole "rubbed in" technique as being no common then, and think it more of a 20th century "best practice" that we assumed was done forever.

[conquerordie]

Very interesting Rich! I'll have to add that to my list of options. Now I have to look up how to make this reddened varnish you speak of. Any hints?
Greg

[rich pierce]

Looking
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=28684.msg273991#msg273991

And

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=28424.msg271462#msg271462

[Carl Young]

Help me understand, does the stock on this H.W. Mortimer pistol have the grain/pores filled in your opinion? I am of the impression that the Mortimers were makers who catered to the upper class.
Thanks,
-Carl



image img

[Dphariss]

Help me understand, does the stock on this H.W. Mortimer pistol have the grain/pores filled in your opinion? I am of the impression that the Mortimers were makers who catered to the upper class.
Thanks,
-Carl



image img

How do we know it has not been stripped at some time?
They used to use heavy bodied oils and varnishes and some of these will fill walnut in a day in the summer when warm sunshine is available.
Filling Walnut with the right heavy bodied oil takes less time than most would think.
But trying to do it with modern very light bodied synthetic finishes can make a person suicidal.

Dan

[Dphariss]

Many stocks were varnished back in the day. Remembering that any finish that would dry to a shine was varnish, either oil or spirit.  In America a cheap brown varnish was often used. This was a soft, "fat" (high oil content) finish that was very elastic and did not easily chip or crack. Usually using some low cost resin like rosin or maybe Gum Arabic to harden it somewhat and reduce its tendency to water spot of turn "white" when wet for a period of time. 
The English may have used harder varnishes made with harder resins but these were harder to make since some have very high melting point and overheating can damage the oil. If the varnish is made too hard it can actually craze and even flake off the wood over time with temperature changes.
This is from W. Greener "The Gun" on finishing maple.  He is using oil and varnish. But this is England and not America. Varnish is a quick way the finish maple especially plain maple. Also a single coat of a "fat" oil varnish mixed with some turpentine will give a one coat finish on Maple. Let it soak in for a time, wipe off before it can dry, done.
I suspect that both varnish and the simple oil finish above were used. I have read of recommendations for a gun to be used on the Upper Missouri as needing a "grease" finish with not shine. What ever this means. It could be dull oil finish. The US military was using a RAW Linseed finish at least at late as 1942 since it will not develop a reflective shine but still gives some protection for the wood.

Dan

[Dphariss]

Also note that English guns, though owned by landed gentry had the finishes renewed from time to time. Perhaps yearly after the hunting season. So even those with some wear got some finish replaced where is was worn.

Dan

[conquerordie]

Thank you everyone for the replies and information. Have a lot of scrap pieces so I'm going to try different combinations to see if one or the other really catches my eye. At this point there are many that I want to try. Plus I have to take into consideration that I'm going to age this gun, so what ever finish I use I have to be able to find a way to age and look good.
Greg

[jerrywh]

 As I said. The pistols did not require the same quality of finish as the Fowlers and the Rifles.   The finish on duelers would be very fine because they are not for daily use.  The same as today, gus were finished to the customers  standards.  A lot of Questions asked on here are to general. When somebody asks if something is NC The question makes the assumption that all the guns of an era are the same. They never are and they never will be.  Then was not much different than now in many respects. Manton made guns for export that ere basically junk and so did many other top Gunmakers. Tathum and Durrs Egg made some Indian trade guns for the Canadian Indians.

[Daryl]

Help me understand, does the stock on this H.W. Mortimer pistol have the grain/pores filled in your opinion? I am of the impression that the Mortimers were makers who catered to the upper class.
Thanks,
-Carl



image img

Not even remotely 'filled'. That is obvious - open pores of holes and slots.  The person who killed that tang screw was not of "upper class".

[T*O*F]

One other thing you have to take into consideration is the quality of the wood then, as opposed to now.  Old growth forests were still in existence and the walnut from these trees was very dense.  It wasn't all that porous.  Contrast that with today's wood, taken from the lone walnut tree living an easy life of rapid growth and low density compared to that of old growth wood.

Also, there are numerous references of making a paste of whiting and rubbing it across grain to fill porous areas.  Harrison and Stelles "Gunsmith Manual" mentions this.

[jerrywh]

  This photo is a very good example of English type pistol sights. They weren't all this way but it is a good idea.
 That sight is another example of a cheaper pistol. Dan. Is this pistol a smooth bore or rifled?  If it is smooth that is probably not the original sight.

[Carl Young]

Jerry, I posted the photo, which was an auction listing here: https://www.cowanauctions.com/lot/english-dulling-pistol-by-h-w-mortimer-1953340

I appreciate the feedback guys. Dan thanks for the reminder about Greener's book; I have it, Neal & Back, Munson's The Mortimer Gunmakers, etc. but reading in books is a poor substitute for actual experience...not many "London best" in rural MS!

Greg thank you for letting me butt-in on your conversation.

Thanks to all.
Carl

[Steve-In]

Interesting post.  After reading the replies to the O.P. I think the answer would be YES, NO, and MAYBE.
From my very limited contact with original rifles in person and seeing the finished products by the contemporary makers the difference is century's apart.  By this I mean the quality of current longrifles is more in line with the English Best guns not the longrifles of late 1700 and early 1800.  I understand wear and tear from 200 years of use and maybe restoration done in the last 50 to 60 years have an effect on fit and finish. 
It is my opinion that some of the best makers of longrifles are alive today.  The old masters gave the new masters the raw material and examples to use in the builds going on today.  Market driven today as it was back then. 

[conquerordie]

Go for it Carl. Its all good info.