Medina Hawken

[Don Stith]

Probably being nit picky, But have to comment on the recent article in MuzzleBlast magazine
 The present owner of the rifle confirms that the stars are non magnetic, so not iron as claimed in the article
.  They are tarnished almost black so are probably coin silver rather than nickel silver as I had thought.
 Other differences of opinion are not as easily reconciled.

[Joe S.]

I was under the impression that Mariano made those stars himself out of pesos,did they make their coins out of silver South of the border though?

[Mike Brooks]

I was under the impression that Mariano made those stars himself out of pesos,did they make their coins out of silver South of the border though?

Yup.

[Mtn Meek]

But have to comment on the recent article in MuzzleBlast magazine

I was disappointed in the article too, Don.  Mr. Woodfill seemed to regurgitate much of what John Baird had written almost 50 years ago.

For example, Mr. Woodfill states, “the Medina Hawken rifle consists of an 1830s made J. & S. Hawken half stock rifle, with an 1860s S. Hawken barrel and a store-bought 1859 Meier lock.”

John Baird had written in his first book, “The lock is marked A. Meier, St. Louis, and Hanson speaks of Adolphus Meier as being listed as a dealer in guns and pistols in St. Louis in 1859.”  Baird’s reference was Charles E. Hanson, Jr.’s 1960 book The Plains Rifle, pages 61-62.

Had Mr. Woodfill read Hanson’s The Hawken Rifle: Its Place In History, he would have noticed on page 78 that Adolphus Meier was advertising in the Missouri Republican newspapers in St. Louis as early as 1838.  Hanson has Meier arriving in St. Louis in March 1837 (Hanson pg 37).  The Medina Hawken could have been built in the 1830s with an Adolphus Meier lock, though not 1833.

Mr. Woodfill also relied heavily on Zethyl Gates’ small biography on Mariano Medina—almost to the point of plagiarism.

Gates:

It is reasonable to assume that Mariano helped Charles Autobees with the pack mules carrying liquid cargo to the fur forts and that he made the trip to St. Louis with him.  We know Mariano first visited St. Louis in 1833.

Woodfill:

Mariano helped Charley with the pack mules carrying the liquid cargo to the fur forts, and accompanied him on Mariano’s first visit to St. Louis in 1833.

Mrs. Gates source for Mariano’s first trip to St. Louis is an 1878 article in the Denver Rocky Mountain News and an undated article in the Longmont Post.  They are likely just repeating A. H. Jones’ recollection of when he thinks Medina acquired his rifle.

Mrs. Gates has a fanciful story of Medina being taken in by Charles Autobees and teaching Medina the “way of the Mountain Man”.

According to James E. Perkins, Tom Tobin: Frontiersman, Charles Autobees (half-brother of Tom Tobin) was in the Idaho-Wyoming area in 1833 and on the payroll at Fort Hall until January 1836.  He went to New Mexico after that.  Perkins has Autobees working for Simeon Turley in the summer of 1836 and delivering whisky to the fur forts on the South Platte—Fort Vasquez and Fort Lupton.  He supposedly made the first trip to St. Louis for Turley in the spring of 1837.

It is possible that Autobees and Medina crossed paths in the Taos area in the late 1830s, but we have no documentation to this effect.  If Medina accompanied Autobees to St. Louis, it would have been in 1837, at the earliest, not 1833.

In reality, we know nothing of Mariano Medina’s trips to St. Louis or his early years in the Rocky Mountains as a trapper.

[Bob Roller]

But have to comment on the recent article in MuzzleBlast magazine

I was disappointed in the article too, Don.  Mr. Woodfill seemed to regurgitate much of what John Baird had written almost 50 years ago.

For example, Mr. Woodfill states, “the Medina Hawken rifle consists of an 1830s made J. & S. Hawken half stock rifle, with an 1860s S. Hawken barrel and a store-bought 1859 Meier lock.”

John Baird had written in his first book, “The lock is marked A. Meier, St. Louis, and Hanson speaks of Adolphus Meier as being listed as a dealer in guns and pistols in St. Louis in 1859.”  Baird’s reference was Charles E. Hanson, Jr.’s 1960 book The Plains Rifle, pages 61-62.

Had Mr. Woodfill read Hanson’s The Hawken Rifle: Its Place In History, he would have noticed on page 78 that Adolphus Meier was advertising in the Missouri Republican newspapers in St. Louis as early as 1838.  Hanson has Meier arriving in St. Louis in March 1837 (Hanson pg 37).  The Medina Hawken could have been built in the 1830s with an Adolphus Meier lock, though not 1833.

Mr. Woodfill also relied heavily on Zethyl Gates’ small biography on Mariano Medina—almost to the point of plagiarism.

Gates:

It is reasonable to assume that Mariano helped Charles Autobees with the pack mules carrying liquid cargo to the fur forts and that he made the trip to St. Louis with him.  We know Mariano first visited St. Louis in 1833.

Woodfill:

Mariano helped Charley with the pack mules carrying the liquid cargo to the fur forts, and accompanied him on Mariano’s first visit to St. Louis in 1833.

Mrs. Gates source for Mariano’s first trip to St. Louis is an 1878 article in the Denver Rocky Mountain News and an undated article in the Longmont Post.  They are likely just repeating A. H. Jones’ recollection of when he thinks Medina acquired his rifle.

Mrs. Gates has a fanciful story of Medina being taken in by Charles Autobees and teaching Medina the “way of the Mountain Man”.

According to James E. Perkins, Tom Tobin: Frontiersman, Charles Autobees (half-brother of Tom Tobin) was in the Idaho-Wyoming area in 1833 and on the payroll at Fort Hall until January 1836.  He went to New Mexico after that.  Perkins has Autobees working for Simeon Turley in the summer of 1836 and delivering whisky to the fur forts on the South Platte—Fort Vasquez and Fort Lupton.  He supposedly made the first trip to St. Louis for Turley in the spring of 1837.

It is possible that Autobees and Medina crossed paths in the Taos area in the late 1830s, but we have no documentation to this effect.  If Medina accompanied Autobees to St. Louis, it would have been in 1837, at the earliest, not 1833.

In reality, we know nothing of Mariano Medina’s trips to St. Louis or his early years in the Rocky Mountains as a trapper.

That lock isn't very big and it's nearly the same size as a Hawken squirrel rifle lock I have made
using an original as a pattern furnished by Tom Dawson in 1969 or thereabout.
Also nearly identical to a plate furnished by the late Ed White of El Dorado,Illinois who passed
away from cancer in 1971. Ed had different lock plates made by a high school machine shop class
and I then made up a mechanism for them.


Bob Roller

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The trouble with printing information that is just speculation, imagination or outright false, is that over time, it gets repeated and re-written until later generations take it as truth.
A letter to the editor is in order, Don.

[Don Stith]

The trouble with printing information that is just speculation, imagination or outright false, is that over time, it gets repeated and re-written until later generations take it as truth.
A letter to the editor is in order, Don.

D.T.
 I share your concern about published misinformation.  I agree with Phil that the date is unlikely and have questions about the lock, wearplate history and some of the romance shared in the article
  However I cannot actually prove when it was built or by who

  The architecture,cheekpiece and lock panel and the trigger guard are typical of that introduced by Hoffman& Cambell in approx 1842.

 Some people believe the wearplate is an after market addition but there is  one other Hawken with the same style wearplate, so how do we prove it either way
 I believe the wearplate originally was built with 12 nails and two others added as reinforcemment when the wear plate started to lift. I'd love to see under the atypical lock bolt escutcheon. That might answer some questions about the lock being a replacement or not.
 It is a very attractive rifle with some very nice features
 I know the stars are not iron, but cannot prove any of the other questions one way or another