Author Topic: Any guess on this barrel's ID  (Read 5043 times)

Offline Brian cox

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Any guess on this barrel's ID
« on: June 07, 2017, 08:10:51 PM »
Hello,
This is a long shot, but I would like to find out who made this barrel. It is either a Green Mountain or an Ed Rayl barrel, the makers mark has been filed off, I am not sure of the rate of twist. If anyone can be of assistance it would be greatly appreciated. I do not have a better picture and do not currently have access to the rifle. Thanks for the detective work.


Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Any guess on this barrel's ID
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2017, 08:38:46 PM »
What makes you say Green Mt., or Rayl? All my GM barrels have 8 cuts, don't know about Ed's barrels. Measure the rate of twist, this might give some more clues. Are the cuts wider than the lands?

Offline Brian cox

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Re: Any guess on this barrel's ID
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2017, 08:42:42 PM »
Grooves are wider than the lands. The owner said it was either a GM or Rayl. Just looking for some educated guesses based on the picture  - it is all I have right now.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Any guess on this barrel's ID
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2017, 10:14:22 PM »
Most modern made barrels have grooves wider than lands. Can't tell who made it. Telling is how many furrows would help. Caliber?
Andover, Vermont

Offline Brian cox

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Re: Any guess on this barrel's ID
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2017, 10:25:47 PM »
.54 cal - you will have to excuse my ignorance on furrows - looks to have 8 lands and grooves, guessing from the picture.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Any guess on this barrel's ID
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2017, 10:46:02 PM »
Guess you never plowed a field lol. Furrows = grooves. Might be a GM.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Brian cox

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Re: Any guess on this barrel's ID
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2017, 04:22:22 AM »
Nope, not a farmer, if I was I would have an inverse relationship between time and money. No time to shoot and chew the fat on the internet, or no money to put into custom and semi custom guns. I thought that furrows were grooves, but when I think, I get into trouble. ;) I appreciate the humor and the efforts.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Any guess on this barrel's ID
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2017, 07:21:46 AM »
Nice clear picture of the pine cones, but poor one of the muzzle!
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Any guess on this barrel's ID
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2017, 04:36:45 PM »
Joe, I know I shouldn't follow your lead on this one lol. But I'm going with a red or Scotch pine based on the needles and cone if the picture was taken in the east. If in the west, can't guess.

Back to the barrel seems to me it's a GM unless others use 8 grooves in a .54.
Andover, Vermont

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Any guess on this barrel's ID
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2017, 05:50:54 PM »
Quote
Back to the barrel seems to me it's a GM
Let's just all agree on that and move on to more important questions.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Any guess on this barrel's ID
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2017, 06:13:14 PM »
Quote
Back to the barrel seems to me it's a GM
Let's just all agree on that and move on to more important questions.
I disagree. I think we should carry this on about four pages like the barrel steel thread. :)
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Brian cox

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Re: Any guess on this barrel's ID
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2017, 07:28:23 PM »
Thank you for the educated guesses, it is much appreciated.
I wish I had a better picture of the barrel, but I had to go with the one I was provided. The owner of the rifle initially advertised it as having an Ed Rayl barrel. The rifle had caught my eye. Doing some research left me thinking that perhaps a mistake had been made about the barrels origin. I inquired and the owner said that they were 80% sure it was a Rayl barrel, if not, then it was a GM. They kindly offered to pull the pins and confirm. They wrote back "I took off the barrel, and found out that the stamp wasn't under there. Now that I think back, I think the stamp ended up on one of the upper flats, and I filed it off." Now I was stuck, so I called Mr. Rayl to inquire as to how many lands and grooves his barrels had. He was very pleasant to talk to. He told me that he made barrels to customer order so he has made some with 8 lands and grooves.. He apologized that couldn't help with my question much. So, I requested a picture of the muzzle from the owner and posted it, hoping to get a more definitive answer. I knew it was a long shot.
This is a bit wordy for a post that some may be tired of, but it is important to me. I want to know, without a doubt, what I am shooting.  I am always positive of my target before I pull the trigger.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Any guess on this barrel's ID
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2017, 08:13:05 PM »
Rifling looks nice and clean and WAY to sharp for the crown. That crown will cut a proper ball and patch combination. Emery, or wet 'n dry paper to smooth and polish.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Any guess on this barrel's ID
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2017, 08:17:22 PM »
Quote
I want to know, without a doubt, what I am shooting
Why does it make any difference.  Both make quality, accurate barrels.

Green Mtn has made 100's of 1000's of barrels, including those for military contracts and cartridge rifles.
Ed Rayl is a one man shop who cuts barrels to spec.
Rice, Getz, Longhammock, and others make quality barrels.

Green Mtn and Rayl do not use 12L14 in their barrels.

Do not buy in to the barrel steel scare thread.  It originated from a single court case decades ago concerning a single barrel.  The two men who perpetuate it have a vested interest, as one was an "expert" who testified as to the "that" barrel's unsuitability based on its physical properties.  The other has chosen to make himself an "expert" by accumulating anecdotal evidence over the years to substantiate his claim.  Thus, they both have professional reputations to protect and will not change their views.

The fact remains that 12L14 is today's de facto standard for barrels, with 10's of 1000's in active use in the field.  If you choose to take a Doomsday attitude toward that fact, then it is your prerogative.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
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Offline Brian cox

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Re: Any guess on this barrel's ID
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2017, 06:12:28 PM »
 
Quote
Why does it make any difference.  Both make quality, accurate barrels.
The difference is knowledge of what I have. I have never questioned the quality of either make of barrel. One is a custom made and one is mass produced or rather was mass produced. That makes a difference to an individual who will discipline themselves to hunt with an antiquated technology. Why does it make a difference if I harvest a animal with a custom flintlock, a bow, or a semi-auto super caliber, the animal tastes the same when it is processed.
I would be lying if I did not admit that the barrel steel thread put my head into a spin, it did, and it is still spinning. I am more knowledgeable now and with that knowledge I am safer.  I know that I have rifles with 12L14 barrels and I plan on to keep using them. I have rifles with 1137 barrels and I plan on to keep using them.  I do not have a custom barrel made from 8620 steel.
To say why does it make a difference is akin to saying wood is wood. Different types of wood have distinct properties, some coals up well when you burn it, some give musical instruments a specific sound quality, and some make great tool handles. Different types of steel also have distinct properties, properties that I am trying to learn about. Knowledge is power.
Quote
If you choose to take a Doomsday attitude toward that fact, then it is your prerogative
I do not believe that I am taking a Doomsday attitude. I am trying to learn and learning is difficult and challenging at times, especially when the learning curve is so great. Several great points have been made - in our litigious society I find it hard to believe that so many companies would use unsafe materials and not be litigated or regulated out of business. At the same time, throughout our history, there is copious historical evidence of companies doing just that. That is not a doomsday attitude, it is a realistic outlook that acknowledges there is more to learn. I am not ignoring the 10s of 1000s of barrels that have been produced and are still in service without incident. I stake my life and limb on that every time I touch off a round.
I am going with the idea that the barrel is a GM unless it can be shown otherwise. Thank you for the input and the humor.


« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 06:16:37 PM by Brian cox »

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Any guess on this barrel's ID
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2017, 08:29:07 PM »
To me the big "tell" on that barrel is not the rifling, but the way the muzzle face is rounded over where it meets the flats. I've only ever seen that on a GM straight barrel.

Unless Rayl has made straight barrels with that odd, ahistoric feature I think we can positively identify it as a GM.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Any guess on this barrel's ID
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2017, 03:03:28 AM »
Mr. T*O*F, I am that "expert" who personally did failure analyses on a number of the dozen or so failures (I disremember exactly how many) I posted here.

I recall that the 12L14 barrel pieces sent me with the first one I did were smeared with a reddish-brown organic matter of some sort. You might say it impressed me.

So far as concern about my reputation, well yes, I am pleased when people in the industry recognize me as knowing something about high temperature alloys. That is, stuff used as fixturing in steel heat treat and other "thermal processing" industries, from around 1400F up to 2200F. Retired ten years, I still make a contribution there now & again.

Challenge me on high temperature alloys and we could have a vigorous discussion.

I was a paid expert witness in one T/C gun failure, I think the barrel might have been 1117, and the one that finally convinced a major West Virginia barrel maker to discontinue their muzzle loading series of barrels. I shook hands, sort of, with what was left of the shooter's right hand (left hand shooter). With respect to this last failure, a metallurgy professor from Illinois was also involved. Years later I put a lawyer in touch with him, at the time retired in Arizona, to take care of a serious problem with modern shotguns. It would have been a conflict of interest for me to be involved, and that professor did a better job anyway. The shotgun maker eventually put notices in gun magazines, maybe 1991, saying in effect there was no problem, nothing was wrong, they'd just like to send you a new barrel for your Model XXX pump.

With respect to my reputation in muzzle loading barrels I'm not so concerned, I do this from moral obligation. I know something about metals, and a little about how industry in general handles materials for lethal service. I have received no payment for my barrel efforts since the mid - 1980's. While I have a fairly healthy ego, I also expect neither agreement nor understanding from very many people in this field.


Offline Joe S.

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Re: Any guess on this barrel's ID
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2017, 03:17:05 AM »
To me the big "tell" on that barrel is not the rifling, but the way the muzzle face is rounded over where it meets the flats. I've only ever seen that on a GM straight barrel.

Unless Rayl has made straight barrels with that odd, ahistoric feature I think we can positively identify it as a GM.
The straight GM barrels I have seen had that same look although it could be done by somebody not knowing any better on a lathe or filed.

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Any guess on this barrel's ID
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2017, 02:45:07 AM »
Looks like a Green Mountain to me.  That is ALL GOOD, as those barrels shoot like a house afire. 

Regarding the comment about one being mass produced and one being custom.....well, neither are hammered out on a forge like barrels were made in the old days.  Since that is the case, there is certainly nothing wrong with a Green Mountain being a production barrel.  Go check the firing line at Friendship and talk to the winners.  You'll find a lot of GM barrels there.

The GM stamped logo in my experience can be pretty shallow to the point of not seeing it.  Tiny and shallow.  It would be easy to lose that when draw filing.  Take the barrel out in the sun and look again.  The logo may be there.  Hopefully on the bottom.   

Have fun with it.   Best wishes, and God Bless,   Marc

Offline Daryl

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Re: Any guess on this barrel's ID
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2017, 04:41:36 AM »
My GM .45 standard barrel matched my .40 Goodoien MATCH barrel for accuracy at 50 yards. Both rifles gave me small holes groups with 5 shots - being 1/2" centre to centre. That might mean the GM barrel is as good as a Goodoien barrel, or that I cannot shoot tighter than 1/2" with open sights at 50 yards and that both barrels are MUCH more accurate than that.
In other words, it is difficult to do better, accuracy wise, than GM.

It still needs the crown smoothed up.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 08:20:09 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V