Southern Mountain rifles, no butt plate, width?

[okawbow]

I'm making a plain Southern rifle using an original barrel and lollipop style tang. The barrel is a little over 15/16" at the breech. The dense, black walnut stock blank is 2 1/4" wide at the butt.

To those that have seen originals without butt plates; how wide is the stock at the butt? Any other features that are different from rifles made with butt plates? How much crescent in the butt? Any pictures, please!

Chuck

[JTR]

Hopefully the link will take you to a gun of mine posted awhile ago. The butt is 1 1/2" wide, and is 4 1/2 from heel to toe. Seems the gun was likely made by J Whitson.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=28878.msg275699#msg275699

John

[okawbow]

Thanks John, that's really close to what I had in mind. Very nice lines.

[JTR]

I agree, nice lines and is a very sweet handling rifle! For me at least, when I throw it up to my shoulder my eye is looking right down the barrel. It still needs work, but at least the stock is straightened out now.
John

[JCKelly]

Rifle, probably Virginia, iron mounted, neither buttplate nor forend cap. Gotta get upstairs tomorry to measure butt dimensions. Barrel .42 caliber 43-3/8" long,muzzle 0.938, narrows to 0.832 about 8" back from muzzle, widens again at breech but only to 0.862.








Someone here quoted something maybe by Gusler said -
"Styling suggests it may be from the upper James area, from either Botetourt or Rockbridge County9.
A relatively shallow trigger guard and stock with little drop are characteristic of Virginia rifles."
Mislaid original references
This rifle is entirely iron mounted, and made without either a buttplate or forend cap. Originally made as flintlock, sometime after about 1825 the rifle  was converted to  percussion ignition.

Bought it because I liked the lines & because I managed to lay my hands on it right as another (larger) man was reaching. We still speak.
   

[okawbow]

Thanks, JC
Nice looking rifle!

Amazing how these. Guns survived without breaking the butt stock. Are the thimbles pinned?

Chuck

[n stephenson]

Mr. Kelly , Nice Rifle!! Elegant and beautiful in it`s simplicity . Thanks for posting. Most of the originals that I`ve seen  without buttplates  aren't quite as sharply cresent in profile as rifles with a butt piece . The edges are usually rounded over  so as to be smooth to the touch.

[Mike Brooks]

This one's butt measures 4 1/4"tall by 1 3/16 wide. I see more broken toes on guns with butplates than guns with out buttplates. They are very sturdy.

[okawbow]

Thanks for the pictures Mike!

I'm getting excited about this build. I have the barrel inletted by hand, and yesterday, I hand cut the ramrod groove and drilled the ramrod hole. Came out great, so far.

Stil haven't bought a lock, or even decided between flint or percussion. My barrel was a percussion, but I cut off an inch of the breech and could make it flint if I wanted to.

Chuck

[Hungry Horse]

 I'd go flint if it were mine. IMO, a time consuming addition like a lollipop tang would be out of character on a gun with no butt plate. A long tang to brace up the thin wrist would be appropriate, but the extra work to forge the tang into a lollipop, not so much.

 Hungry Horse

[okawbow]

Take a look at JTR s link above. That rifle has beautiful architecture, and a lollipop tang, but no butt plate, entry pipe, or nose cap.

There are lots of Tennessee rifles with hand forged butt plates out there. I made 2 myself. Not so many have recreated a plain gun with good lines. I want to make something a little different.

[44-henry]

Sorry for the lousy photos, but this is one I picked up some years back that you might like to see. I can go and dig it out to get some measurements if you are interested. Don't know much about it and I took the pictures several years ago when I bought it. The forestock has been replaced, but other than a possible refinish the buttstock seems original.

[okawbow]

Thanks!
Any idea where this gun was made?

[Mark Elliott]

A lot depends on how thin you plan to make the rest of the rifle.   I allow a 3/32" sidewall on my southern guns.   That would put you at an 1 1/8" front of the lock panels and at least that behind the lock panels.   Add a little for the butt and I would think that 1 1/4" would be the thinest I would go.   That might work out for a late flint or early percussion gun.   If I was going for something earlier,  I might opt for a 1 1/2" butt and 1 1/4" wrist.    You really kinda need to have an original gun (place and time) in mind to guide your design.   An early 19th century gun could have an even wider wrist and butt.   A 1 5/8" wrist and a 1 3/4" butt would not be out of place for a Virginia gun from around 1800.    I would make a gun without a butt piece that same dimensions as one with a butt piece.

[okawbow]

Did some work on building the rifle. I used a not-so-good walnut blank I had that had several bad spots and worm holes. So far, all the defects have been removed except 1 worm hole.

I hand inlet the barrel, and ramrod groove. Drilled the ramrod hole. Rough shaped the butt stock, and wrist. Inlet the lock plate and some of the internals. coming along.

Untitled by okawbow, on Flickr

Tennessee poorboy 2017 by okawbow, on Flickr

Untitled by okawbow, on Flickr

Tpb by okawbow, on Flickr

[n stephenson]

Okawbow, Nice Work! 

[Nordnecker]

Hmmm..... I might be completely wrong about this, but here goes. Your butt stock looks like it has negative pitch. It seems like when you set the butt of the rifle on the ground for loading, etc, the toe is where the gun will rest. It could be very fragile without a butt plate or toe plate.

[greybeard]

Yes. A lot of negative pitch . Hard on the toe and hard on the shoulder unless it is a small bore with not much recoil..    Bob

[okawbow]

Part of that is camera angle. I used other southern rifles as an example for the butt shape.

It actually feels very comfortable and secure when brought to the shoulder. The barrel stands verticle when the butt is on the ground. I don't see it causing any problems.