Prepping old wood for acraglas repair? (PICS ADDED)

[Hemo]

I am about to start on a restoration of an original English fowler, full stocked in what appears to be English walnut, probably late 18th century. The gun has a complete fracture passing through the front of the lock recess. Lock is missing. Some smaller splits and cracks are present extending backward from the site of the break. There are jagged saw-toothed edges at the fracture site which fit together well with little missing wood, and I am anticipating joining this using acraglas at the site of the break and into the cracks. The break appears to be very old. The jagged edges of the break are very dark and oxidized, and the entire gun appears to be covered with a waxy finish. The broken edges also have a waxy or greasy feel. I'm concerned that the acraglas will not bond to these greasy surfaces. I have so far tried removing the grease in the broken edges using acetone vigorously brushed in with a toothbrush. This improved the feel somewhat, but I believe the oily stuff has penetrated deeper into the wood. Does anyone have any suggestions about how to degrease an old broken piece like this besides what I have done? Also, any better options than an acraglas repair?

Thanks,

Gregg

[davec2]

Get some of this from Brownells:

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/stock-work-finishing/stock-finish-strippers/old-fashioned-whiting-prod1133.aspx

Use as directed but I have had excellent luck mixing it with acetone, painting it on the surface to be de-greased, and then setting the stock in the sun to warm the wood.  You can see the discoloration in the whiting as it draws out the oil / grease.

[deepcreekdale]

When I restored old center fire rifles I would use paint stripper and rinse with water after and repeat as necessary.  You need to get all the old oil and/or wax or whatever may have accumulated over the years out. Not sure I would use that technique on an antique from that era though.  I would never use acraglas on an antique either, only hide glue as that is what was used back then. It is plenty strong as well. Restoration on anything from the 18th century should only be done by someone with lots of experience in restoration and conservation and only after consulting experts as to the value and provenance of the piece. You could take a valuable and historically significant piece and turn it into something worthless. You need to document everything you do, take multiple pictures along the way for future reference as well.

[Scota4570]

Aerosol brake cleaner (hexane).    You have to thoroughly de-grease or the glue will not stick.  Hose away until clean.  Valuable antiques probably should be worked on by an expert. 

[Hemo]

Thanks for your replies!

Dave2C, thanks for the tip on the whiting product. I have ordered some from Brownell's and will give it a try.

Deepcreekdale, I certainly appreciate the exercise of caution and care in any antique restoration work. I have not used hide glue in the past, but yesterday ordered a product called "Titebond III Hide Glue" which apparently does not require mixing or heating. I'll try this out on some scrap pieces. In regard to epoxy or  acraglas being inappropriate for antique repair, opinions appear to be in flux over time. The late Kit Ravenshear wrote in one of his booklets in about 1993 that he used acraglas in about 60% of his antique gun repairs. R.H McCrory wrote in his book "Lock Stock and Barrel -- Antique Gun Repair" in 1966 that his favorite glue was "Elmer's Epoxy". John Bivins wrote in the publication "Rifle" in 1983 "Because of the nature of handling stresss on the stock, and often imperfect joints because of oil-contaminated wood, epoxy unfortunately is the only really effective adhesive for use in restoring firearms." He goes on to say he uses the word "unfortunately" due to the difficulty in reversing an epoxy repair. He further mentions the use of hide glue, but states that he feels hide glue lacks sufficient strength for major stock repairs.

More recently, Mark Eliott wrote on his website under the topic of restoration that he used T-88 epoxy in the repair of a Gonter flintlock with two complete breaks through the stock, one at the back of the wrist and one passing through the front part of the lock inlet. The latter break is almost identical to the break in my fowler. He stated that he would normally use hide glue but felt that this would not be adequate for these major repairs. Here is the link to his site and the results of his nice repair:    http://www.markelliottva.com/wordpress/2015/04/repair-restoration/
Please feel free to chime in, Mark!

As far as sending this to a professional firearms conservator, I don't believe this piece is rare or valuable enough to warrent the expense. The gun is well constructed but does not appear to be an especially high-end piece. (I stated in my first post that it was probably late 18th century but certainly could be early 19th.)

Here are some pictures showing the overall gun and its damage.



























Note the iron ramrod, simple V rear sight, missing simple sideplate/washers, brass trigger plate. Proofmarks are mostly obliterated, apparently from a vise. The acorn finial and relatively pointed back of the lock inlet suggested late 18th century to me. Other thoughts welcome! If anyone thinks this piece is rare or valuable enough to warrant professional restoration, please say so. I anticipate doing only minimal repairs, primarily fixing the big break and replacing the sideplate/washers, also finding an appropriate replacement flint lock.

Thanks, Gregg

[rich pierce]

Great project. Good luck and keep us posted!

[taco650]

Are you hoping to get it restored enough to shoot?  What are your thoughts on patching the wood around the lock area? 

Looks like quite a challenge!

[Hemo]

Hi, taco650,

There's no way I would dream of shooting this! In general, I don't think shooting original antiques is a good idea--although the barrel, if cleaned up, could probably tolerate it, the wood would be at high risk of additional damage from recoil. It's just not as strong as it used to be a couple of centuries ago, and already broken once!

I think the few missing pieces of wood around the lock mortise can be replaced with small walnut patches with little evidence of repair. I've restored much worse pieces than this!

The challenge may be to find an age-appropriate lock that fits the lock mortise. The Twigg lock by Davis has a plate which is very close in size and shape, but  the cock and frizzen appear pretty large in relation to the rest of this rather slender piece, and may also be a little too fancy for a fairly simple fowler like this. Also, I hate to spend the money on a fancy new high end lock that will never be fired. I may go with assembling castings from an original if I can't find an actual original lock to use.

Gregg

[deepcreekdale]

Gregg, I think you are right on track with what you are doing with this old timer and agree with your assessment of the piece. It is a cool project however. These projects are always fun, as it is interesting to see yourself on a continuum with the gunbuilders of time past. I still like to use real hide glue on older originals, although I understand that many feel it appropriate. I am definitely on the conservative spectrum when is comes to restorations. I think hide glue  is just more "correct" and is surprisingly strong and durable, especially here where you have no plans to shoot it.  It is forgiving of mistakes (we all make them) while epoxy tends to give you one shot. Titebond should be fine, I recently did a restoration on a 19th century 10 gauge double barrel shotgun where the stock was broken similar to what you have with Titebond and it left almost invisible lines that have held up fine in cowboy action shooting.

[Hemo]

Thanks for your input, deepcreekdale. I believe I may start with the Titebond III hide glue for this repair, and if it doesn't hold, I can still reverse it and move on to epoxy. The Titebond III hide glue appears to be different than regular Titebond III. I'll still try it out first on some scrap. If a Titebond III repair stands up to the recoil of a 10 gauge shotgun, I'd say that's a pretty strong recommendation!

Gregg

[Hudnut]

Before you actually glue it together, spend some time experimenting with the clamping system that will hold the stock together while the glue cures.  I like the tan rubber tubing - really pulls things together.  But you have to work out how to apply the tension.

[rich pierce]

Bicycle inner tube strips work great. I can send to anyone for postage.

[Ron Scott]

The titebond glue will be a much stronger repair but it won't fill gaps. A more traditional approach is to fit and glue matching wood wherever missing sections occur. Not fast, but a more acceptable method.

[jerrywh]

 Please examine the barrel top and bottom for proof marks and such.  This could be the remnants of an old Indian trade gun. There were many odd ball guns made for the Indian trade. That London make is an indicator.

[Hungry Horse]

Titebond hide glue might be an option. When wet it easily cleans up with water, but when it dries it very strong.

  Hungry Horse

[taco650]

Hi, taco650,

There's no way I would dream of shooting this! In general, I don't think shooting original antiques is a good idea--although the barrel, if cleaned up, could probably tolerate it, the wood would be at high risk of additional damage from recoil. It's just not as strong as it used to be a couple of centuries ago, and already broken once!

I think the few missing pieces of wood around the lock mortise can be replaced with small walnut patches with little evidence of repair. I've restored much worse pieces than this!

The challenge may be to find an age-appropriate lock that fits the lock mortise. The Twigg lock by Davis has a plate which is very close in size and shape, but  the cock and frizzen appear pretty large in relation to the rest of this rather slender piece, and may also be a little too fancy for a fairly simple fowler like this. Also, I hate to spend the money on a fancy new high end lock that will never be fired. I may go with assembling castings from an original if I can't find an actual original lock to use.

Gregg

Gregg,

Thanks for the explanation.  I'm exited to see how this turns out when you're done!

Stuart

[oakridge]

Maybe it's not rare or valuable, but that's a really nice gun. I like it. Good luck on your restoration, and keep us posted on the results. Thanks for showing it.

[Hemo]

I just received my orders of Titebond Genuine Hide Glue (not Titebond III hide glue as I previously called it), T-88 structural epoxy, and already have Acraglas original and gel. I'll break some scraps of walnut and do a head-to-head comparison of these three adhesives and let you know how it comes out.

Jerrywh, I'm adding a couple more pics showing what remains of any stamps or markings on the barrel. As I noted previously, the proofmarks on the left upper flat near the breech are mostly obliterated by vise marks. I can almost imagine two lobes of a crown in what's left of the rearmost mark, but if so, it would be upside  down compared to the usual crown-V and crown-P stamps.

No maker's mark remains. The only other mark is a small stamp on the bottom flat in the shape of an eight-pointed star. I found a similar mark on a photo of an English barrel made by Wilson, right above the Wilson stamp, but can't find any other marking on my barrel. Couldn't find any online references to this star-shaped stamp otherwise.

I considered the possibility that this could be an Indian trade fowler, possibly a chief's grade due to the presence of an entry pipe and simple shallow floral engraving on the buttplate and tang, but chief's grade guns were often marked with the silhouette of a warrior on the thumb piece, and on my piece the oval thumbpiece is plain. Also, I suspect the presence of a hooked breech and slotted keys fixing the barrel might be a little too grand for an Indian trade piece. I certainly don't consider myself an expert in these things, however, and other ideas are welcome. Maybe I should post this on the antique firearms forum? I think it could easily be a medium-grade English export piece, not necessarily an Indian trade gun.

Is Mike Brooks out there to comment?






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Thanks to all for your input.

Gregg

[Smoketown]

Pin the stock using all-thread stock of your choice.

Make the holes a bit oversize and let the breaks in the wood align themselves.

Or, pin it after you glue it back together if, you can drill from an area that will be hidden when the gun is assembled.

Cheers,
Smoketown

[Mike Brooks]

this is a 1790-1815 era gun, probably more likely 1790's than later. the 'pillar" triggerguard post is a good indication of a 1790's or later gun as are the sideplates and the engraving style. nothing to do with the indian trade, just a common export fowling gun made for the white trade. nice to see you're stabilizing it.

[Hemo]

this is a 1790-1815 era gun, probably more likely 1790's than later. the 'pillar" triggerguard post is a good indication of a 1790's or later gun as are the sideplates and the engraving style. nothing to do with the indian trade, just a common export fowling gun made for the white trade. nice to see you're stabilizing it.

Thanks for your input, Mike. That's pretty much what I anticipated.

Gregg

[Ray Settanta]

Looks like a major project. I am very interested to see your work and the end result. This should be greatly informative.