Author Topic: A new lock is coming soon!  (Read 7465 times)

Offline SingleMalt

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A new lock is coming soon!
« on: July 10, 2017, 07:44:52 PM »
Our own Chris Laubach has been working on a new lock.  Germanic in style, and suited for an early or transitional rifle or jaeger.  A slight modification to the tail of the lockplate would push that into the Revolutionary War period.  It should be ready for sale around Christmas or early next year.  Here's a link to the Facebook page where he's posting updates.  I'm really looking forward to this!

https://www.facebook.com/Firelocks-477867219240191/

 
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2017, 08:15:26 PM »
I like the looks of it. Would like to see the internals.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Lucky R A

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2017, 11:15:58 PM »
     Chris had prototypes at the Lewisburg show last February.  It was a nice clean looking lock.  As I understand it much of it is CNC machined.  The younger generation is exploring new technology in so many areas.  I am waiting until someone starts 3-D printing trigger guards and butt plates.
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Offline SingleMalt

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2017, 04:42:51 AM »
   I am waiting until someone starts 3-D printing trigger guards and butt plates.

Me too!
Never drink whisky that isn't old enough to vote.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."- Plato

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."

Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2017, 04:34:40 PM »
I would be afraid a 3-D printer would fall into my coal forge. That can't be good for them!  :o
”Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” Theodore Roosevelt

Offline Scota4570

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2017, 08:36:45 PM »
I'd love to have one.  I'd strongly prefer a CNC lock, or even MIM.  The castings, assembled to a price point,  that we normally use are pretty sloppy.   A really nice lock would be too expensive to market if made from castings.  CNC and MIM would change that.  It would also open the door to making exact copies of originals. 

Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2017, 04:28:02 PM »
Huh. I used to sand cast my own buttplates and triggerguards and still forge my iron mounts on a forge, just like in the old days and now that is not good enough and they should be turned out using CNC or 3 D printing? I like building flintlock rifles due to the connection with past craftsmen and techniques, not to see if I can apply modern processes. Not being critical of anyone if they choose to do things differently but I get more satisfaction and I think the guns look much better when all, or at least most of the parts are hand made using authentic HC methods.  I know some people like to use CNC and machine tools but guns made that way, while often beautiful, never look very authentic. If you have handled any original guns from the 1700's you know what I mean. Cleaning up sand castings or forgings is part of the "art and mystery" of being a gunsmith IMHO. Using modern parts and methods does not seem to be gunsmithing to me, just sticking prefab parts on a precarved stock is not "gunsmithing" to me. I can see doing it when learning, such as using one of Jim Kiblers or Jim Chambers outstanding kits as a way to see how to do it right when learning but not after the first few guns.
”Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” Theodore Roosevelt

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2017, 04:36:45 PM »
I believe The use of CNC machines are used to keep the price down in something like a lock. I'm sure a fella can't pound one out and be competitive price wise as a cnc machine. I'll take a CNC produced lock, no problem, I'd take one hand made as well, but chances are I wouldn't be able to afford it.
 Also keep in mind it was rare indeed for one man to make a gun. Most everything done in Colonial America was made from a set of components just like we do today. Most locks came from England and the Germanic countries by the barrel full.
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2017, 04:49:46 PM »
True enough Mike. I have only made one lock from scratch by hand, not something I would choose to repeat. I believe, based on newspaper advertisements of the time even butt plates and triggerguards were purchased as rough castings, at least in brass. (Main reason I no longer cast my own) Very few gunsmiths back them made their own locks, they all bought them from suppliers like we do. My issue is the suggestion that locks and other castings available today are sloppy or hard to work with and could be replaced with CNC stuff. Personally, I think Chambers locks are far superior to anything available to the Colonial smiths and they are castings. I am sure there were hand made English and Continental locks of better quality, but few/any of them made it over the pond as components. Back then, a man of wealth, (ie George Washington) if he wanted a high grade gun, had it built in England.
”Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” Theodore Roosevelt

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2017, 04:53:02 PM »
   Deepcreekdale I'm with you on this. I like the little imperfections. The file marks etc. Truly admire the perfection so many on here can do.   The guns with little flaws draw my attention.  Oldtravler

n stephenson

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2017, 04:57:30 PM »
Deepcreekdale, Preach on brother!!! In an unusual manner I have kept quiet on this . So many people are singing high praises of the modern produced parts, kits etc  and, that is great! . I suppose it makes it easier for someone to apply some finish , and then go" look at what I built "  . It is just the way things are headed . I don`t blame anyone for building a business and, providing a service for the masses , it is called the American dream and, I commend anyone willing to try it. Where my complaint lies is, any time I`ve ever made a comment on here about rough shaping a stock with power tools { after shaping the first 60 or 70 with hand tools and, ruining my elbows in the process}  The experts come out of the woodwork to chastise me and make sure that any newcomers  know not to do it the "wrong" way. That is fine they are entitled to their opinion and methods . I just feel it`s kind of hypocritical to jump on one guys back for using power tools but, line up holding hands and singing  high praises of  someone using a CNC machine to mill out rifle stocks. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but, for those who don`t  know it a CNC machine  falls into the category of "power tools" .

Offline chris laubach

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2017, 05:50:40 PM »
Just to clarify.... I am working on bringing several new locks to the market. I am going to be making these locks via cast parts just as the current locks are made that are on the market today. I have looked at having parts made via CNC but this process puts the price in a bracket that is very expensive. The only locks that I am making using the CNC process are the prototypes. Which I have not completed yet. (hope to have the metal prototype completed by the end of August).

As for hand forged locks... That's a whole other topic.

Thanks
Chris L.

Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2017, 06:05:11 PM »
Old traveler, you would love my guns, they sure have a lot of flaws! I guess the artistry and craftsmanship comes from eliminating as many as possible. Nate, I use a few power tools as necessary also, ie band saw for preliminary shaping of blanks, drill press, hand drill etc. However, I feel real pride in being able to use handtools such as drawknives, spokeshaves, various planes, scrapers etc as I think the use of these old style tools is dying out and, as many of us here are, being of a historical mind and maybe a bit old fashioned, it is sort of my way of sticking my finger in the eye of the modern world. Since apprentices tend to run off with the milk maid these days, I do use electricity to do what teenage boys used to do. I certainly don't mean to be critical of anyone that does it differently, we all have our own preferences and goals when we do this. I also understand the need to get parts in the hands of folks, especially beginners at an attractive price. This whole gun building thing can run into real money real quick if you're not careful.
Since I build for customers, I take pride and the customers appreciate, the fact that I make most of the parts from scratch. Like most others, I purchase barrels, locks and stock blanks from suppliers as well as brass castings for buttplates and triggerguards. Iron mounts I forge. As Mike pointed out, that is basically the way the originals were made. Ramrod thimbles, nose caps, side plates, triggers sight etc, to me, look better as handmade items.
”Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” Theodore Roosevelt

Offline Scota4570

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2017, 06:05:16 PM »
Traditionally made rifles are wonderfull.  Educational operations that make every part by hand from scratch are wonderfull educational organizations. Such guns are a niche market.

Thing is most of us are casual builders, hobiests, and shooters.  Being inclusive of everyone and open to new ways of doing things encourages the hobby.  IF we relied on only truely hand made rifles, few could be made.  They quality would be inconsistent.  Only a few folks could own them.  Quality made guns made with modern techniques, in traditional patterns, encourages the hobby.  IT does not displace the traditionalists.   It actually gets folks interesed who may go on to become a master at original techniques.

The locks we buy, made from castings are not done in a traditional way anyhow.  Casting steel is a modern technique too.  CNC and MIM are also modern but produce a much better part than what we normally get now.  The locks I often buy have sloppy tumbler fits.  The sears are floppy on the screw.  The castings are orten incomplete.  The finishing involves a buffing wheel charged with Polish-o-ray, or a belt sander. 

Chambers stuff is nice, it is an exception.   
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 06:07:41 PM by Scota4570 »

Offline SingleMalt

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2017, 06:14:59 PM »
What Chris is doing is taking an original lock and using it as a pattern for the proportions of the lock.  He's not copying the wear found in the original, its erased from the external and internal parts.  Casting usually results in 5% shrinkage.  This is eliminated, so the lock is very close to the actual size of the original.

Printing the parts on a 3D printer allows Chris to try the lock and make sure the geometry works before committing to steel.  At this point, a change can be made cheaply to correct a problem.  After everything checks OK, it's off to mill molds, shoot waxes, and cast in steel.

The idea of CNC milling a lock, or other parts, is really great.  We've probably all seen shows on The Discovery Channel or The History Channel describing a CNC at work.  The downside is the cost.  A $200 lock could easily now cost in the range of $1,500 to $2,000. A corporation the size of Ford or GM can bury the expense in the hundreds of thousands of parts the CNC will turn out.  An individual making a run of hundred locks at a time can't.  By contrast a hand forged lock would likely cost $4,000 to $5,000 for ONE lock.

I hope this answers some questions.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 06:32:41 PM by SingleMalt »
Never drink whisky that isn't old enough to vote.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."- Plato

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2017, 06:26:35 PM »
   Deepcreekdale I'm with you on this. I like the little imperfections. The file marks etc. Truly admire the perfection so many on here can do.   The guns with little flaws draw my attention.  Oldtravler
If the CNC locks can be made and marketed at an affordable price and are traditionally styled
for the times they are representing then let it go forward.There is only one reason investment
cast lock parts are sometimes troublesome and that is MONEY. Lynton McKenzie told me of a
Swiss precision cast group of parts for the Brazier "4 pin" car locks as used on long range
rifles that were ready to install after they cooled off from the casting process.These will all
from milled,polished cavity moulds with shrinkage factored in. This sort of casting is seen
here in captive foundries like T/C and Ruger but never in muzzle loaders because of the cost.
My methods are primitive,bordering on the absurd but I am used to them and I am not in
any stressed situation to get anything done.Nobody seems to know what became of the Swiss
lock dies but they proved quality work can be done using this method IF enough money is
put into it.
I am glad there are quality kits available now from Chambers,Kibler and others because many
do not have  the skills to start from a plank and make any kind of useful rifle or
pistol or even a shop area to work in.
Speaking as a lock maker I am glad to see new work coming on and I am not worried about
"competition" as I compete only with myself and nobody else.This month I have finished ONE
lock and trigger. More to do but it will have to wait until I can get my eyes corrected because
of cataracts.

Bob Roller

Offline Scota4570

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2017, 06:46:48 PM »
I bet as technology evolves costs will come down.  Today S/W uses a lot of MIM parts, because they are cheaper and work.  CNC has replaced the traditional single operation mills of the past.  You can get an 80%  all milled receiver for $60 on sale, the cast then milled one for $40.   I believe that someday the right guy  is going to stumble onto a used milti axis 3D mill.  Much like how Jim Kibler is doing his stocks,  that guy is going to start producing great locks at a competive price.

This is how a few smart guys rescued Prat and Whitney rifling machines and produced great barrels at a decent price. 

Offline Pennsylvania Dutchman

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2017, 07:13:36 PM »
I know that there are quality MIM parts out there. There are MIM parts in a lot of modern diesel engines. On the other hand, my son, who is a SIG, Remington and AR15 armourer for the National Park Service, tells me that all of the MIM parts must be replaced with machined parts for the firearms to be qualified to be used by law enforcement.
Mark
Mark Poley

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2017, 07:16:15 PM »
MIM?  Made In 'Merica? ???
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2017, 07:17:46 PM »
I thought CNC stuff was inexpensive once you had your machinery programed....evidently I was wrong....
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline SingleMalt

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2017, 07:28:06 PM »
I thought CNC stuff was inexpensive once you had your machinery programed....evidently I was wrong....

You're also paying for the machinery.  A quick search showed prices ranging from $27,000 to almost $67,000. 
Never drink whisky that isn't old enough to vote.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."- Plato

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2017, 07:30:40 PM »
Check out the link to Chris's facebook page inclueded early in the thread.  He briefly describes his intended production techniques.  He explains CNC will not be a big part.

Jim

Offline Scota4570

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2017, 07:33:03 PM »
MIM?  Made In 'Merica? ???

Metal injection molding.  They press  a part out of a powdered steel with binders.  The part is then fired, like clay, and fused into solid steel.  It make a very precise and strong part.   For things with complex contours it is a great way to go. 

I recently looked at a replacement hammer I bought a while back.  The decorative flair above the hammer face is half missing.  I can not use that hammer, my money was wasted.  It was to replace a hammer with deep pits cast into the surface.  I got a lock bolt escuchtion with wrinkles in it a while back.  Another junk part.  The trigger guard I am using on my current project is to replace one that was flawed and snapped.  The replacement has wrinkles.  IMHO some casters produces a lot of scrap and rough parts, often it is shipped with little or no inspection or QC. 

All casting is not the same.  Kibbler's stuff is wonderfull.  It must be produce differently than the run of the mill guys. 
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 08:07:36 PM by Scota4570 »

n stephenson

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Re: A new lock is coming soon!
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2017, 07:34:21 PM »
Mike, Programming is just the start . Then you`ve got to pay the programmer , the metal supplier, the electric bill, the note on the shop, Pay for tooling , misc. expenses , go to the grocery store , pay insurance , advertise, develop new designs , and a million other things that have to be done. This sounds like too much work for me !!, I`ll just build guns, we all know that is easy.

Offline JCKelly

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« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2017, 10:51:10 PM »
Modern investment cast firearms parts usually, and I suspect most always are, infinitely better that that brittle stuff you make barrels of.

MIM?  For quite some decades now people have been using parts made of powdered iron, with various other powder additions, and zinc stearate as a binder. The "green" compacted iron powder that looks like an actual part is then gently placed in a furnace of some sort operating maybe 2000F or higher. That process is called sintering, and all those little powder particles more or less weld together. How solid the finished part is depends upon how it was pressed to begin with, and how it was sintered. Remington was the first gunmaker to really get into this process.

MIM is the next step up. Rather than pressing dry powder in a steel die to make a fragile part to be sintered, one injects metal powder + some liquid into a die. Then sinters it. Quality depends upon exactly how it is made.

Personally I would not care to have a powdered metal or MIM part in any machine I needed to be reliable. Yeah, they CAN be great. But . . .

My experience is mostly with furnace parts for the sintering process. Plus seeing one broken Italian shotgun part that looked about the same as a Remington part. Plus some knowledge of how . . . don't wanna get sued. Some modern makers have not, for the last century and a half, been terribly concerned with metal quality.