Traditional Finishes

[p. gannon]

Is there a reference available that describes the production and application of “traditional” wood finishes?  There was also a post a while back regarding vinegar stains.  It looked like it produces a nice result but is metal content in the vinegar a potential problem over time?

Thanks,
Paul

[Scott Semmel]

The archives will give you tons of information on both finishes and stains. A search will also give you an idea of the vast number of opinions and options available.

[brokenflint]

p gannon,   If you have trouble getting into the archives, shoot a moderator a post.  sometimes there has been login issues, moderator can give you access.

Broke

[Stophel]

I haven't found any one book very good on the subject.  You just have to glean whatever information you can, wherever you can.

[David Rase]

Chris is right, references are like finding the old proverbial needle in a haystack.  Some of the best references are in the ALR archives.  If you are doing internet searches start with violin finishes.  That has mined the most information for me.
DMR

[Dphariss]

Is there a reference available that describes the production and application of “traditional” wood finishes?  There was also a post a while back regarding vinegar stains.  It looked like it produces a nice result but is metal content in the vinegar a potential problem over time?

Thanks,
Paul

When looking for "wood finishes" one must remember that not all finishes then or now, work well on firearms.
A piece of furniture or a musical instrument can tolerate a finish that will flake and fall off a firearm in many cases.
Hard finishes are not the best choice for a firearm since they are not elastic enough. Hard plastic finishes as used on some Remington rifles at one time could be heard breaking if brought into a warm room when they had been cold soaked by hunting in winter.
In looking at old vanish finished guns that retain finish it will be noted that the finish generally wears away without checking or flaking. This indicates a high oil content with relatively little resins. Finishes on musical instruments are often made with high priced, high temperature resins. These make a very hard varnish in many cases and will aid the tonal qualities for the instrument. But the finish will likely not stand the abuse the soft varnish used on firearms  made with cheap, low temp resins, will. Few firearms were carried around in carefully padded hard cases.

This is a J&S Hawken circa 1850 that seems to retain a significant amount of its original varnish.
Close inspection (though the glass) detected no checking or flaking even where the wood was deeply dented. I also doubt that it was very reflective when new, though it might have been. Reflective finishes were not popular in the west where they could act as a signal mirror and be seen for miles.

Dan

[tg]

 "Reflective finishes were not popular in the west where they could act as a signal mirror and be seen for miles."

i see a lot of concern nowdays about the brass and polished barrels and furnitute "giving up ones position" Has anyone seen any period refernces the indicate a fear of brite stocks, locks and barrels, aside form the military?

[Chuck Burrows]

 "Reflective finishes were not popular in the west where they could act as a signal mirror and be seen for miles."

i see a lot of concern nowdays about the brass and polished barrels and furniture "giving up ones position" Has anyone seen any period references the indicate a fear of brite stocks, locks and barrels, aside form the military?

1833 - An article in the American Turf Register noted that the barrel should be well browned and the parts should be steel rather than brass or silver to prevent reflection which could be "too easily seen by wild game."
I've seen a couple of other period references, but don't have them at hand........

[Dphariss]

Here is the pic that was supposed to be in the post  above
Preview, gotta use preview.
Dan

[Dphariss]

 "Reflective finishes were not popular in the west where they could act as a signal mirror and be seen for miles."

i see a lot of concern nowdays about the brass and polished barrels and furnitute "giving up ones position" Has anyone seen any period refernces the indicate a fear of brite stocks, locks and barrels, aside form the military?

Consult "Firearms of The American West 1803-1865" Garavaglia and Worman.
Pg 36 is one.  Where spooking game and reflecting into the shooters eye when sighting is mentioned.
This is found in other books as well and various reasons are given.
I recall a letter written from the frontier to a person moving out to a post specifying a "grease" finish rather than a varnish finish.

I have no idea what a "grease finish" is but could be heavy linseed oil. The oil I use for fill will hardly drip...
Supposition of course so any other ideas are welcome.

Dan

[Dphariss]

Another thought.
The finish on the Hawken might well brighten with handling as linseed will, but its still not as bright as a high gloss varnish finish.

Dan

[Sean]

I've always found the 'shiny brass spooking of game and alerting the natives thing' interesting considering that:
A) The only period reference I've seen for it is the one Chuck mentions which is written in the early 1830's by an author and for an audience that is about as far as you can get from a western fur trapper.
B) The vast majority of rifles shipped west for the trade were brass mounted, and on may of them the iron barrels and locks were not even browned or blued, just draw-filed and left bright.
C) Rifles listed in B when used hard in primitive conditions, quickly began to look like this one:

http://www.jsbrookslongrifles.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=19468442

As for the shiny varnish finishes, I cannot recall seeing anything else on an original gun.  Those original lead and linseed finishes do oxidize and darken, but many retain their sheen.  I've seen English Board of Ordinance guns that have oxidized to the point where they almost look like they were painted with gloss black paint.

Sean

[Dphariss]

I've always found the 'shiny brass spooking of game and alerting the natives thing' interesting considering that:
A) The only period reference I've seen for it is the one Chuck mentions which is written in the early 1830's by an author and for an audience that is about as far as you can get from a western fur trapper.
B) The vast majority of rifles shipped west for the trade were brass mounted, and on may of them the iron barrels and locks were not even browned or blued, just draw-filed and left bright.
C) Rifles listed in B when used hard in primitive conditions, quickly began to look like this one:

http://www.jsbrookslongrifles.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=19468442

As for the shiny varnish finishes, I cannot recall seeing anything else on an original gun.  Those original lead and linseed finishes do oxidize and darken, but many retain their sheen.  I've seen English Board of Ordinance guns that have oxidized to the point where they almost look like they were painted with gloss black paint.

Sean

Brass is not a great concern it will brown up pretty nicely in most areas. But some people might not have liked it back in the day. I like brass mounted Kentucky rifles much more than iron mounted. But brass looks wrong on a plains rifle like a J&S or S Hawken.
We do have a letter from Henry Boller on the Upper Missouri in 1858 to his father requesting a 26" barreled double shot gun for a 1/2 ounce ball, rifle stocked (wood of black walnut, greased, not varnished) with a large breech box, easily opened, two sights on the barrel like a rifle.... mounted with brass.
This in Firearms of the American west 1803-1865 pg 267.

I also would point out that the well polished steel patch box on my Manton style rifle will make bright mirror like projections of the sun on the ground around me as I walk and surely elsewhere even after I heat blued it. Now when you are in an area such as this


It might attract unwanted attention from a considerable distance away. The peaks in the distance are 70 miles straight line BTW.
The Monument seen in the photo is very old and is thought to be considerably pre-Columbian.
There run from Canada to Mexico down the eastern front. The shadow cast by this one can be seen on Google Earth if you know where to look.



Dan

[Sean]

Dan,

I'm well versed in hunting in open country in the West.  I did not intend to belittle the information you provided.  My point was that we may take a few sparse references on this subject and over apply it.  How many western fur trappers read the American Turf Register?  And while Boller is a great resource he was a robe trader well after the period that so many want to apply this idea to.  Over the last 10 years or so we've documented a few iron-mounted Hawkens and Henrys going west as early as 1830.  The numbers on these guns verses brass mounted guns are still on the order of 1 to 100 or more depending on how one figures the time period and place of interest.  Also, the grease finish references you mention are interesting, but they are not currently born out as anything common based on surviving rifles from any place or time that I am aware of.  The original post asked about traditional wood finishes.  The term traditional implies that he was interested in commonly used historical finishes.  Under this definition, I don't think we can make an argument for anything other than an oil varnish, and I think we have to chalk up the iron vs brass thing to personal taste and realize that it is outside the scope of the original question.

Sean

[Dphariss]

Dan,

I'm well versed in hunting in open country in the West.  I did not intend to belittle the information you provided.  My point was that we may take a few sparse references on this subject and over apply it.  How many western fur trappers read the American Turf Register?  And while Boller is a great resource he was a robe trader well after the period that so many want to apply this idea to.  Over the last 10 years or so we've documented a few iron-mounted Hawkens and Henrys going west as early as 1830.  The numbers on these guns verses brass mounted guns are still on the order of 1 to 100 or more depending on how one figures the time period and place of interest.  Also, the grease finish references you mention are interesting, but they are not currently born out as anything common based on surviving rifles from any place or time that I am aware of.  The original post asked about traditional wood finishes.  The term traditional implies that he was interested in commonly used historical finishes.  Under this definition, I don't think we can make an argument for anything other than an oil varnish, and I think we have to chalk up the iron vs brass thing to personal taste and realize that it is outside the scope of the original question.

Sean

The problem is the lack of information.
For example we know that L&C made moccasins but we have no idea what they looked like.
Many things simply were not discussed at the level we would require to "know" everything we would like.
While the comments about dull finishes may not be up to the level proof some would like. I have not found any references to someone writing east wanting a bright shiny finish on their gun either.
We have to take what we can find. Thinking that a letter from one person is somehow setting the "norm" is a mistake. But he had to come up with the idea somehow. Perhaps he distrusted the durability of the varnish and reflection had nothing  to do with it.
We can only make assumptions about such things at this late date.

Dan