Offhand shooting-best rifle

[Maurice]

Looking to improve my offhand shooting. Looking for comments and advice on rifle characteristics from those who are good at this. I find that I have trouble holding my 50 cal Lancaster style 42" swamped barrel or my 50 cal T/C PA Hunter 32" barrel steady and hope to build a rifle that might be easier to control. Would like to focus on the rifle variable initially before getting into posture, breathing, when to pull the trigger etc., but feel free to throw any suggestions my way since they are all intertwined. By the way, I have "old eyes" 

[Molly]

You know what's funny about this, seriously, is that none of my rifles move when laying on the table yet they dance around when I aim them.  Why is that?

[PPatch]

Hi Maurice, welcome to ALR.

Question: How much shooting experience do you have in general? Basic marksmanship knowledge does make a difference, and practicing is good if you are using the proper techniques.

The type or style of rifle shouldn't make a whole lot of difference, muzzleloaders are fairly heavy guns, and shooting them offhand will bring on a wobble if you're taking too long to complete the shot. We'll go from there when we know what your level of experience shooting is.

dave

[okawbow]

My best offhand rifle is a 54 cal flintlock with a 48" mild swamped barrel. I made the gun, so it fits me like a glove. The way the stock fits is the most important quality for an offhand rifle. When you bring the gun up and put your cheek against the stock, the sights should be lined up on the target with no effort.

A long sight radius helps accuracy, but "feels" like you are moving more than with a short barrel. I like a heavy barrel also, as it seems to steady my aim more. However, I can only hold the heavy barrel a short time before my arms start get tired.

The most important thing is to practice often holding, sighting and follow through.

[PPatch]

You know what's funny about this, seriously, is that none of my rifles move when laying on the table yet they dance around when I aim them.  Why is that?

Sounds like poor cheek weld, try resting the full weight of your head on the butt of the rifle.

dave

[Stoner creek]

Consistency is the key. Pick up one gun and shoot it all of the time. It probably doesn't matter much which gun you choose as long as you can see the sights whilst holding it offhand. When you aren't shooting, hang a target on the wall of your garage or shop and dry fire at the target. Old eyes or no you can develop muscle memory. I also spend part of my normal day to day with a 5 lb. leg weight strapped to my left arm ( I'm right handed). Find a stance that puts the least amount of strain on the rest of your body. Do the same things every time you load and fire. Don't be too proud to put the gun down when you're barrel starts wobbling around because you held it up there too long. I've been doing this 38 years. It's about all I know. Consistency my friend!!!!

[David R. Pennington]

Practise, Practise, Practise. As my uncle used to say, it ain't so much the brush as the painter.

[Maurice]

   Only shoot flintlock rifles/pistols since 1998. Last  2-3 years -  I try to get to the range 1 a week during April - October. Before that very sporadic. Usually 15 rounds or so from various positions - sitting, standing, with a rest, with a shooting stick and off hand. Concentrate more so at 25 - 35 yds  - for hunting purposes. Routinely in a 3" diameter circle from a rest at that range. Fewer shots at 50 yds. Usually in a 6" diameter from a rest at that range.  None at 100 yds.
     I think my Lancaster fits better than the T/C. Never had any basic marksmanship training. Positioned the rear sight further down the Lancaster's barrel when I built it and seems to on target when I put cheek to stock. Will try the cheek weld suggestion. Not sure what is meant by follow through though or what proper technique might be

[oldtravler61]

 Maurice you have received very good advice.
 This is just what I do.
First the gun should fit you like a glove. The sights should be there when you shoulder the gun.
 Also the triggers are paramount in precise shooting.
 Do as Stoner says practice holding your gun up an pointing at a dot or target on the wall. Don't scare the neighbors.
 Last but not least when the gun go's bang. Your eyes should still be on the target, with your sights still on target. That's called follow thru.
 Practice at a close distance first till you have a good consistency in your groups. It all takes time.
 Last but bot least pick a hold on your gun that WORK'S for you.. Hope this helps.  Oldtravler

[Flint62Smoothie]

Read this - see link below - a treatise on offhand black powder (cartridge, admittedly) shooting by the famed Happy M. Pope, the famous barrel maker. Some of his witnessed offhand 200-yard groups/scores still haven't been beaten. He was a small, thin man, but he shot heavy (12-pound) rifles.

Link = http://www.issa-schuetzen.org/off-hand-rifle-shooting.html

In the July 1st, 1922 issue of “ARMS AND THE MAN” we find such an excellent article on “Off Hand Rifle Shooting” by H. M. Pope quoted herewith:

“I am a little fellow, but I can shoot rings around most large shooters. It is not the size and strength that count, but the nerve and judgment. With these instructions and a lot of careful practice you can attain in a short time what it took me years to learn. Study these methods and shoot all you can. Carefully note everything you do and you will find your work improving. Pay attention to the details.

Good luck be with you.

H. M. Pope”

[nosrettap1958]

There are a lot of good reason why people say its the worst shooting position but if you find a good rifle let me know, will ya Maurice? 

[Darkhorse]

I think your going about this backward. I think you should develop your technique, form and marksmanship with a rifle you presently have first. Unless you know how to cure it I'd guess you have a finch of some degree when shooting a flintlock. Don't take offense we have all been there once or twice and there are many out there with the same problem. When you can shoot your rifle really well and you still think you need another then go for it. I've been lucky that I can shoot almost any style pretty accurately but it's taken over 30 years to find the "right" one for me. That is the Isacc Haines style stock, I have built 2 and they fit me perfectly. Your rifle is out there somewhere but if you don't develop your marksmanship first how will you know it when you find it?

[David R. Pennington]

I think your going about this backward. I think you should develop your technique, form and marksmanship with a rifle you presently have first. Unless you know how to cure it I'd guess you have a finch of some degree when shooting a flintlock. Don't take offense we have all been there once or twice and there are many out there with the same problem. When you can shoot your rifle really well and you still think you need another then go for it. I've been lucky that I can shoot almost any style pretty accurately but it's taken over 30 years to find the "right" one for me. That is the Isacc Haines style stock, I have built 2 and they fit me perfectly. Your rifle is out there somewhere but if you don't develop your marksmanship first how will you know it when you find it?

Spot on

[Mike Brooks]

Instead of wasting your time watching TV practice holding your rifle. All about strength and muscle memory......until you can't see any more then you're screwed.

[PPatch]

   Only shoot flintlock rifles/pistols since 1998. Last  2-3 years -  I try to get to the range 1 a week during April - October. Before that very sporadic. Usually 15 rounds or so from various positions - sitting, standing, with a rest, with a shooting stick and off hand. Concentrate more so at 25 - 35 yds  - for hunting purposes. Routinely in a 3" diameter circle from a rest at that range. Fewer shots at 50 yds. Usually in a 6" diameter from a rest at that range.  None at 100 yds.
     I think my Lancaster fits better than the T/C. Never had any basic marksmanship training. Positioned the rear sight further down the Lancaster's barrel when I built it and seems to on target when I put cheek to stock. Will try the cheek weld suggestion. Not sure what is meant by follow through though or what proper technique might be

So you understand the basics, stance, cheek weld, sighting, trigger release and follow through. I recommend revisiting those basics along with practice as ,others have mentioned. To rise above average shooting it takes regular practice, but if you aren't firm in technique then practice is a waste of your time.

Revisit the basics, keep those firmly in mind as you visualize the whole shooting sequence in your mind (over and over). Now pick up the rifle and do the same thing, actually pulling the trigger (dry firing). Once the gunlock snaps keep your stance and sight picture while holding the trigger to the rear a moment before releasing it (known as follow through). In actual shooting you would hold that trigger in place (rearward)  until the shot is off and the ball on the way to the target. If you can "call your shot" (know where the ball will impact the target) before it arrives at the target then you are becoming a better marksman.

Do you know how to work up a load for a muzzleloader? With a muzzleloader you shoot for the tightest groups first, then move on to sighting the gun for zero. Once you know the load (powder charge, patch and ball combination) your gun performs best with you will see a great improvement shooting it. At that point too, knowing where your gun shoots, you can move out to longer ranges. For hunting you need to zero the gun at your expected range for taking game.

dave

[little joe]

Old eyes are a problem however try to concenrate on the front sight and make it as clear as possible, rear sight and target will be fuzzy but that is  the way it is with us old ones. Bench your gun and get a good group and move on to other things More guns are blamed as it won,t shoot however 99% of the time it is a lack of skill, determation and practice. Have one in the shop now getting new sights as the owner worked on them till there was not  any sights left

[Majorjoel]

I sure cannot brag about being a champion crack shot, even with many years of consistent muzzle loading target practice.  Mostly for me I find satisfaction just coming close and hitting paper 99.8 % of the time.

I have quite a few eye problems along with all of the normal trouble that goes with getting up there in the age bracket.

On the other hand, there have been 3 rifles that I have built over the years out of a lot of other's that actually shot and grouped MUCH better than everything else I ever shot!

Each rifle fit into that often heard, but usually came with something that was being sold HYPE, "shoots better than the shooter"
Well, these 3 rifles actually did shoot very well and did so with consistency, every time I took them out.

The barrels used were all of different makers of good names and reputations, but the one thing all had in common was the fact that each was just a tad muzzle heavy. 

Nothing extreme here but the overwhelming balance point was a bit front sided. 

[Bob Roller]

My all time favorite was a Whitworth semi military match rifle for offhand
or any other kind of shooting with a muzzle loader.It was in reality,a match
rifle with the long forearm and barrel bands so it could categorized as a
"sorts/kinda"military rifle. It had a 34" barrel,hook breech,fine sights and
was a .451 for a bullet. The shotgun butt plate on these rifles and the angle
of the stock,drop and pull were just right.
Years ago,a friend made a relplica of Hawken using the Robideaux drawings
and it was precise as a fine craftsman could make.NO deviation on any dimension.
His father shot it one time and pronounced the crescent butt plate to be an
abomination. Another rifle was made to the same specs but with a shotgun
butt plate and it was a way nicer gun to shoot. The man that made both of them
is Sid Estep. I showed him how to make locks and triggers and he made good ones
but the muzzle loading fraternity of that time thought they should be cheap so
he quit,set up a job shop and forgot about the locks and triggers. I bought his
supply of spring steel. This was all in the mid 1970's. Sid also made some
FINE crescent butt plates but the market for a quality Hawken butt plate for about $20
was not there.Another really fine craftsman lost to our hobby and sport.

Bob Roller

[hanshi]

I was familiar with guns in general and muzzleloaders in particular well before I was in the Army; I was a pretty dang good off-hand shot.  I even won a few shoots with rifles back in the day.

Now, old age/bad eyesight and something doctors call "essential tremors" have mostly taken away my one-time skills.  But up until the last few years I was still a passable shot even standing.  My best off-hand shooting was done with a muzzle heavy rifle with a long straight barrel.  The sights would move but because of the muzzle weight they moved very slowly on target.  For about the first 6 seconds or so the sights would almost lock onto the target and I shot good groups.  I have a 25" .45 custom cap rifle with a heavy barrel and mostly do pretty good shooting with it.  I NEVER shoot at deer from a standing position.  The last time I got a shot while walking back to my truck, I immediately dropped into a kneeling position and made a quick, killing shot.  So as an old man who's a lousy shot, I'll never see the ability to shoot like I use to.

Swamped barrels generally make the best hunting rifles; but straight barrels make the best target rifles.  You'll never stop the sights from moving around and you shouldn't try.  Instead, work toward getting the moving circles smaller and learn to fire when the sights start to move across bull.  Don't jerk the trigger, just be ready to slowly pull it so you can't judge the micro instance of ignition.

[Daryl]

images uploader

This one is easy to hole offhand - 48" bl. makes it easy.